Dive into the enchanting history and life lessons of Walt Disney with Dr. Jeffrey Barnes, a.k.a. Dr. Disneyland. We explore Walt Disney's visionary storytelling, the business strategies behind Disney's success and advice for first-timers who want to experience the magic of Disney.
Dr. Jeffrey Barnes, also known as Dr. Disneyland, delves into the enchanting history and life lessons of Walt Disney. Dr. Barnes, an author and professor, shares his unique experiences growing up as a military child, his transformative journey to Disneyland and his eventual deep dive into Walt Disney’s remarkable story of resilience and creativity.
Author of The Wisdom of Walt and Life Lessons from Walt, Dr. Barnes muses on the evolution of Disney parks, the impact of storytelling and the current business challenges and strategies of the Disney brand.
He is blunt in his assessment of the Jimmy Kimmel incident with ABC and Disney+ and doesn’t shy away from discussing Disney’s corporate leadership and post-pandemic pricing strategies. “Not consumer-friendly, not family-friendly,” he says.
Dr. Barnes also shares personal anecdotes and powerful insights on creativity, overcoming obstacles and the enduring magic of Disney that continues to inspire generations. Tune in to explore the rich tapestry of Disney's legacy and how its lessons can be applied in everyday life.
Books by Dr. Jeffrey Barnes
The Wisdom of Walt
Life Lessons from Walt
Contact Jeff Barnes and find links to buy his books at his website: https://thewisdomofwalt.com
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Disneyland
04:02 Memorable Family Vacations - The Land of Oz and Disney World
05:21 Loving Disney World and the Comedown on First Visit to Disneyland
07:29 Walt's Story
10:37 Reinterpreting Disney World as an Adult
14:20 Bucket List Disney Parks Around the World
14:57 How Jeff Likes to Travel
16:29 How did the book come to be?
18:59 Diagnosed with life-threatening brain tumor
21:37 Second Brain Tumor
22:11 Is Disney for the Wealthy Only?
24:52 Post-Pandemic Pricing at Disney
25:40 Disney Corporate Leadership
27:38 Disney, Bob Iger and Jimmy Kimmel
31:11 Disney as Reflection of American Society Through the Decades
38:53 Roy Disney and Financial Restraints
41:32 Advice for Visiting Disney the First Time
43:49 How the Magic Is Made
45:27 Leadership Lessons from Walt
47:27 Consulting at Disney
Places Mentioned
Disneyland
Disney World
Storybook Mansion
Riverside, California
Florida Panhandle
Orlando, Florida
Boone, North Carolina
Kansas City
Los Angeles
Griffith Park
Tokyo Disneyland
Tokyo Disney Seas
Disneyland Paris
Euro Disney
Glendale
Fort Huachuca
Davis-Monthan Air Force Base
St. Petersburg, Florida
Marceline, Missouri
[00:00:00]
Christi: Welcome to Moving Along. Dr. Jeffrey Barnes is my guest today. He is an expert on the magic of Disney and the lessons we can learn from the man himself. Walt Disney, Jeff even goes by the name Dr. Disneyland. He teaches a college level course on the history of Disneyland, lives in Riverside, [00:01:00] California, and is a sought after full-time speaker around the world.
He is the author of The Wisdom of Walt and Life Lessons from Walt. Welcome, Jeff.
Christi: I'm so glad to be talking to you about something that comes right out of my childhood and, only has good memories but I wanted to ask you, you grew up as a military child and spent a lot of time in the Panhandle of Florida. did travel and moving mean to you as a child?
Jeff: You know, it was interesting because you kind of lived in this bubble where you know, every kid's parent kind of had the same job or at least worked for the same organization, right? And you had this expectation that every three or four years you were going to play musical chairs or fruit basket upset.
Meaning you were [00:02:00] gonna move and, or they were going to move. that was just your world. that was what you knew. Going to a civilian grocery store was extremely rare. Knowing anybody who owned their own home, again, extremely rare because everything was, you know, self-contained.
You know, military base or military bubble. And it's interesting, I, I've never really thought about this, but having just gotten home to California from another trip to Walt Disney World you know, when you go to Walt Disney World, it's a bubble, right? You know, you, you stay at a Disney property, you go to a Disney park, you eat at a Disney restaurant.
You know, the idea is to experience all things Disney. And I'm not saying growing up on a military base, like growing up at Walt Disney World, but it is sort of an all inclusive, all encompassing experience. it was also very positive in the sense that you know, you [00:03:00] had great respect for the families that were around you.
a love of country lots of, patriotism and, you know, understanding that service means and, you know, something and matters. And so I'm very proud of my dad for having done that for 22 years. And while I never served myself, I did get started in higher education by working with military members on military posts like Fort Huachuca in southeastern Arizona, Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson and eventually out in Hawaii.
So yeah, love the military and, and, and love that military history in my background.
Christi: Do you have brothers and sisters?
Jeff: Yes, yes.
Christi: Lots of them.
Jeff: So I, I have an older sister, a younger brother, and a younger sister,
Christi: Did you go to resorts when you were a kid? Was that [00:04:00] kind of vacations you took?
Jeff: So I can remember two family vacations. and some of that had to do with finances. A lot of it had to do with how often my dad was, you know, deployed. He would be gone to Korea for six months at a time. He would be gone to Thailand for an entire year. But I remember a trip when we were living in North Carolina to Boone, North Carolina.
We were living in the eastern part of the state. Boone is in the Western Park and visited a theme park that a lot of people dunno about and has long since been forgotten the land of Oz. And it was an opportunity to experience. At a theme park level all of the wonder of, you know, that movie. And I was just like, blown away.
I, I just thought it was the most amazing anything I had ever, you know, seen in my life. And then when we moved down to Florida in 1974, about two and a half [00:05:00] years, almost three years after Walt Disney World opened we made the trek to Orlando. And I had the opportunity to experience not just Walt Disney World for the first time, but my very first Disney Park, I was 10 years old and it left a huge impression on me.
Christi: Was that the genesis of becoming Dr. Disneyland?
Jeff: Not at all. Great question. So that's, that's sort of a funny story because I fell in love with Disney the second I stepped onto Main Street, USA, I immediately knew that if there was anything close to heaven on this side of dying, that had to be it. And anytime I was going back, I, I never went back on a family vacation, but my grandmother took me the following summer.
You know, there were scouting trips, there were band trips there was grad night. I always was like the most excited kid in the group because we're, we're gonna Walt Disney where we're gonna the Magic Kingdom. It was [00:06:00] amazing. And I went to college in Mississippi, grad school in California. I always wanted to live in California and didn't get out to Los Angeles and Disneyland until August of 1988. And I absolutely hated it.
Christi: Ah.
Jeff: I had all of these expectations. I'd heard about it my entire life, and it just didn't measure up. It was too small, it was too crowded, it was too hot. We didn't know what we were doing. So we walk in on a Sunday morning in August at around 11:00 AM and we wanna ride the newest, latest, greatest, which was Star Tours.
Took three hours to have our first Disneyland attraction experience. And I, I walked out of there, you know, swearing the place off. Could not have had a worst first day visit at Walt's original park. Fortunately, however. I stayed in California long enough to [00:07:00] realize that Disneyland means something to the locals way more than Walt.
Disney World means something to the people of Florida. Now that's changed a little bit as Orlando has gotten more and more crowded. But Walt Disney World has always been an international tourist destination, whereas Disneyland, by and large has been a locals park. And so I got super curious like, why is everyone else in California obsessed with going to Disneyland?
And I had this awful experience.
Jeff: And so I started doing research and that's when I learned about Walt Disney. I had no clue that he had a very difficult and impoverished childhood. No clue that he was bankrupt at age 21, way back in 1923 that his first studio failed in Kansas City. He lost his first successful cartoon character.
Oswald, the Lucky Rabbit, had to sell everything to bring sound to Steamboat Willie. And then when it came time to do Snow White, no one [00:08:00] believed in him. And when it came time to do Disneyland, even though he was 53 and hollered all of these successes under his belt, again, no one believed in him. And I thought that story was just amazing.
And I had a chance to go back to Disneyland three years after my first visit. And when I experienced the park through the lens of Walt's story and all of those failures and all of those obstacles and all of those conflicts, I could not have appreciated it more. And so it was that story that really connected with me.
Christi: And you saw it through the lens of now being a kind of a local too,
Jeff: Correct, but I also saw it through the lens of a storyteller. I had done my doctoral dissertation on narrative or story criticism, and I had learned that Walt most wanted to be remembered as a storyteller, and he built Disneyland. There were 2000 musical parks in the United States when Disneyland opened 70 years [00:09:00] ago, but they were parks that only engaged us physically.
There weren't parks that told stories. There weren't parks that engaged us mentally or sparked our imaginations. Walt wanted a park that told stories, and so when I saw the park and experienced the park through the lens of story, everything changed.
Christi: Is that how you think people experience it now when they go on resort vacations?
Jeff: Yes and no. And, and what I mean by that is as human beings, we are wired for story. It, it's why we love books. It's why we go to the movies. I think it's why Disney connects with us more than any other kind of theme or amusement park. Because all of the attractions are constructed to tell a story. And some people are aware of that.
Most people are not. But because story is so hardwired into our DNA, whether you recognize that or not, it connects with you at a subconscious [00:10:00] level, and it inspires you and it motivates you, and it wants you to have that, experience and that feeling again and again and again.
Christi: When you go back to Florida now, and I think you kind of were. Just saying something about this, but I want, I want more. That now that you've had this deeper connection with Disneyland through the understanding of Walt Disney's vision for it, and goal for it, whatever you wanna call it, can you see any of that still in Disney World or in Euro, Disney or wherever else you see the Disney brand?
Jeff: Yes. Because when I was a kid I was just, you know, wrapped up in the awe and the magic of it, right? And I didn't really know anything about story, and I certainly didn't know anything about Walt Disney's story. When I go to Florida inevitably two thoughts or two stories come to mind.
One. The manner in which Walt was able to will that [00:11:00] into existence out of worthless swampland in the middle of central Florida is it, is, is unbelievable. And you know, Walt was a creator and I think his greatest creation was his ability to create his own world and his own reality. people don't realize it, but you're always either reacting to your reality or creating your reality Walt was phenomenal at creating the worlds and the realities that he wanted to experience.
it's incredibly motivating. It's incredibly inspiring, to think that you could go from bankrupt. You know, the worlds most popular and what is today, our nation's largest single out land that most people consider to be completely worthless.
Secondly, and I had this experience just Tuesday [00:12:00] night because we got back from Walt Disney World yesterday.
I see it through the eyes of 10-year-old Jeff. there's a restaurant in Fantasy Land of Magic Kingdom the Pinocchio House of Pinocchio Village, and it has windows overlooking the Small World boat ride. And I can remember sitting there with my mom, my dad, my three brothers and sisters. Eating a meal in August of 1974, looking at those boats. And you know, my mom talking about how that attraction and that ride was her absolute favorite. Well that was 51 years ago. My mom's been gone for 18 years now.
But when I see those windows, and I was very intentional on Tuesday night of making sure we went into that restaurant and sat at a table next to one of those windows.
I'm 10 years old all over again and my family is like right [00:13:00] there. And you know, my mom is still talking about, how much she loves. It's a Small World and I look back on my own life and I look back on my own story and have immense gratitude for everything that's happened in the past 51 years. So it provides perspective.
Christi: It sounds like the, the happiest place in the world has infused your spirit.
Jeff: Well, I would like to think so because I very much believe that positivity wins and pessimism loses. And you know, Walt was positive. Walt wanted to bring happiness into the world, and you know, I'm on the same mission. I, share the same goal. it's just fascinating to me. This goes back to story Two, people can have the exact same experience and one person can be, you know, completely unfazed by it, maybe even inspired and motivated as a result of [00:14:00] it, and another person might not ever get over it.
And it's all about optimism versus pessimism. It's all about the story you are telling yourself about that experience.
Christi: That sounds awfully meta the story of the story. How many theme parks have you been to of the Disney brand?
Jeff: Well, I'm, I'm working to get to all of them. I've been to the Disneyland resort here in California. I've been to the Walt Disney World Resort in Florida, and I've been to Disneyland, Paris. I've not yet visited the Asian parks. My number one bucket list trip is Tokyo Disneyland slash Tokyo Disney Seas.
I had that trip booked and paid for May of 2020.
Christi: Oh,
Jeff: course, we all know what happened in 2020. Right.
And I have not had the opportunity to, to reschedule that. But it's, it's gonna happen.
Christi: And how do you like to travel? Do you go with the whole [00:15:00] family? You go with your wife? or do you go alone? Have you been alone?
Jeff: All of the above. But it, it is interesting that you asked that. My wife goes with me on almost every trip and on this past trip, 'cause I was in Orlando speaking to private equity pharmaceutical company. My wife came with me. We also brought her mom or my mother-in-law. And you know, the joy of that is she had never been until after we got married a few years ago, and she had an opportunity.
She, she lives seven miles from Disneyland. She had never been to Florida, never been to Walt Disney World. We took her for the first time. She loved it. She was blown away. We brought her on this visit because we were going to do Universal and Walt Disney World. And there's a certain joy that you get when you experience something that you love, like Disney, like a theme park through the eyes of somebody else.
Now the temptation is to think, [00:16:00] oh, well that's why I take my kids, right? Because we experience through their eyes and through their youth and through their joy. And that's a hundred percent true. But it's not just kids. When you can take a full size adult and watch them morph into a child because they're experiencing that awe, and they're experiencing that wonder and they're experiencing that magic. Life doesn't get any better than that.
Christi: She had fun. In other words.
Jeff: She loved it.
Christi: She loved it. That's
great. That's great. so which came first, your understanding that there were leadership and life lessons here, or you thought, I love this so much, there's gotta be a book here somewhere, or how did, how did that all come to be?
Jeff: It was an evolution. So first trip to Disneyland. Hated it. Second trip blown away because I saw it through Walt's eyes and saw it through the lens of story. As soon as I got back home in Northern California, I [00:17:00] started telling people, this is June of 1991. I started telling people I'm going to write a book on Disneyland one day. Now. I had no clue what that was gonna be. I had no clue how to get a book published, how to market a book, how to sell a book, but I was gonna write a book on Disneyland one day. And I would start, stop, start, stop, start, stop it. It, it went like nowhere for 20 years. And then when I moved to Southern California and had the responsibilities of a full-time humanities professor, Dean of Student Success, I was working with students who were struggling.
They had the ability to succeed, but they were getting in their own way, telling the wrong story. you know, here in Southern California, there's only two things we all have in common. We love In-N-Out Burger and we love going to Disneyland. And I'm like, you know what? If I could take something that they know, leverage something that they love, which is Disneyland, and talk about Walt's [00:18:00] story and all of his struggles and all of his obstacles, and how you have to embrace conflict in order to succeed. Maybe because, because if I just went in and started talking about success and goal setting, they turned me off in 30 seconds. But if I talked in Disney parables, I'd have 'em hooked, right? And so I started dreaming of a college course on the history of Disneyland. Now, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, Christi, at this point I'd been in higher ed close to 20 years.
I probably taught more than 20 different college courses. So coming up with another class was easy for me and way easier than figuring out how to write the damn book. So, at some level, you know, the class was a distraction. But what happened was after spending a year working on it and developing it and giving the very first lecture, and the students loved it,
Jeff: I was [00:19:00] diagnosed with a life-threatening brain tumor. Wow. they wanted to operate immediately. And best case scenario, recovery was minimum two months. I refused to have the surgery because I was committed to the course.
I was committed to the students because the class was never about the amusement park. It was about overcoming obstacles. It was about embracing conflict. It was about challenging yourself to do hard things. Well, this was an opportunity for me to not just teach that, but to actually live it. And spoiler alert, I taught the course I had the surgery, I survived.
Christi: You are still here?
Jeff: I'm still here. And on the other side of that, because I had faced mortality for the first time in my life and won. I didn't care that I didn't know how to write a book. I didn't care that I didn't have a publisher. I didn't care that I know how to market. I did it anyway. And what had been 20 years of a story of woe was me.
I [00:20:00] don't know how procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate. I wrote a bestseller in 142 days.
Christi: When you're ready, you're ready.
Jeff: When you're ready?
Christi: I come out of book publishing. I don't know if you know that, but I think that people that I know that take that long to write, it's always there. It's always there. It's in the back. It's forming itself. It's waiting for the moment, and your moment came and with a must have been pretty scary.
Well, how did you feel?
Jeff: It was almost an out-of-body kind of experience. I talk about it in my keynote, and it's almost as if I'm telling a story that happened to somebody else
and I, I talk about this a lot. You know, when Walt went bankrupt with his first studio in Kansas City, he could have stayed stuck.
he could have given up, but instead he decided to come to California. And so he boarded a train, but he boarded that train with $40 a single [00:21:00] suitcase on a one way ticket. He was fully committed. He was going in one direction. There was no returning to his failed pass. And I felt as though I had made the same level of commitment.
I had boarded the train. I was all in $40, single suitcase, one way ticket. Nothing was going to stop me. Nothing was gonna stop me. From teaching the course. Nothing was going to stop me from surviving the brain tumor, and nothing was going to stop me from finally writing this book.
Christi: And you did it.
Jeff: I did it.
Christi: You okay now?
Jeff: Yes.
Christi: It's never come back or anything bad.
Jeff: Well, I didn't say that. So in 2020, like we already talked about 2020, right? I did have a second brain tumor. It wasn't a return of this one. This one was in a different location, but I did have a second brain tumor in 2020 past five years. Been completely clear.
Christi: That's great. That's great to hear. You have kids
Jeff: I have a [00:22:00] daughter who is an investigative journalist in St. Peterburg, Florida. She works for the Tampa Bay Times.
Christi: Oh, good for her. We need journalists. Yes. This
is great. That's wonderful.
Christi: What do you think about the suggestion that Disneyland has become for the wealthy? Only
Jeff: Oh gosh. That's a challenging question I hear all the time. No one can afford to go to Disney anymore, and as I travel the country and the world speaking on Disney, it is easily the number one complaint. Why is it so expensive? And it's, guess what the number two complaint is?
Christi: Long lines.
Jeff: Why is it so freaking crowded? I would love to have that business problem, right. Because my business is speaking, I would love to be able to charge whatever I wanted for a keynote and to have my calendar filled to capacity 365 days a year. Now I do, well, don't get [00:23:00] me wrong, but I don't do that well. I have this whole spiel about Walt's wife, Lily and his brother Roy, wanted nothing to do with the amusement park.
And then when it opened, it was Walt's older brother Roy, who spent the first dollar to purchase the first ticket to get into Disneyland back in July of 1955. And when people see that the original admission price was all of $1, they gasp and then they wish, of course, well man, I wish it only cost a dollar today.
No, you don't, because the park would close in 15 minutes. There's only so much capacity. And we were at Walt Disney World again earlier this week. The lines at Epcot on Monday were a hundred minutes plus.
Christi: Wow.
Jeff: on Tuesday this is like, stop and think about this for just a moment. On Tuesday at Magic Kingdom, the park was full for the folks who bought a day ticket, [00:24:00] but the day ticket didn't get them until 10:00 PM or midnight.
They had to leave at 6:00 PM because that night was a Halloween party. And at at 7:00 PM the Halloween party starts and it goes until midnight. And so Disney is able to charge a full day ticket for not a full day and fill the park and then send everybody out, and then bring a, in a whole nother slew of guests and sell that event out.
And more than double their. It's insane. Like everybody thinks no one can afford it. The more they charge, the more it seems like everybody wants it.
Christi: I think there were some comments I read about you know, skip the line kinds of tiered pricing. Do you have thoughts about that?
Jeff: I do. The pandemic, Disney has made a lot of decisions that I don't think have been fan friendly [00:25:00] and have not necessarily been middle class or consumer friendly and they're doing it because they can. I miss the free fast passes. You know, I, I miss some of the other perks that you would get for staying at a Disney property.
It doesn't feel as magical as it, as it once did. And at the same time you know, Disney isn't answering to Walt's ghost or Walt's legacy. They're answering to their stockholders and they're trying to bring in as much return on investment as possible and they're really freaking good at it.
Christi: What do you make of Bob Iger's long, long tenure as CEO of Disney and then left and was brought back.
Jeff: Great question. So I will start by saying I love Bob Iger and I think he has [00:26:00] had a really great career at Disney. Starting with if, if Eisner had not resigned. Iger come in. The relationship with Steve Jobs and Pixar would've been completely like, like the first thing Bob Iger does is fix that relationship with Steve Jobs and Pixar and probably, you know, really helps, if not, saves both of those companies.
And then since then, he, he purchases you know, Lucas's, star Wars, he purchases Marvel. All of those were like, absolutely wonderful. it is interesting because during the pandemic was when his successor is in charge, a fellow by the name of Bob Chapek. There's a lot of things that Bob Chapek did that quite frankly Bob Iger would've done as well.
It's just Bob Iger is more likable and so, Bob Iger can say it and nobody blinks an eye. Bob Chapek says it and everybody loses their mind. there's value in [00:27:00] being likable and Bob Iger is likable since his return, I, I haven't been nearly as happy with him, and I do think it is time for new leadership and Disney needs to figure out in a hurry what their succession plan is.
Because even if Bob wants to be around for forever, he's not. And you know, Disney's going to get left in the dust if they don't hurry some things along. And I say that having been to Universal and Epic seeing what their creative team is doing, and it does feel like Disney is a step or two behind now.
Christi: So that brings us to the Jimmy Kimmel situation where Kimmel was basically kicked off the air. I'll just put it in the most basic terms. And Bob Iger and Disney did nothing until they were forced to, until they had to respond. And there's two [00:28:00] pieces of this I, I'm hoping that you can address, and one is about Bob Iger's inaction,
the cancellation of the subscriptions, which we don't have official numbers.
I don't believe I heard 1.7 million, but. I don't think that's a very reliable number. And then the, the next piece of it is about the possible successor Dana Walden, who apparently made nice with Jimmy Kimmel. Everybody got very nice and Kimmel came back. So
what do you think?
Jeff: so the Kimmel situation was extremely unfortunate and very much a reflection of, of the time that we are living in. And I can tell you as a teacher of American history, as a teacher of American government what we're seeing happening is not normal, is not okay. And I, [00:29:00] I'm appalled quite frankly.
And, and I say that as someone who historically has been conservative. what's happening today is not conservatism. it's something completely different. And yeah, I have some very strong views about that, that I'm not going to get into. What I will say is it's very apparent that Kimmel was targeted and targeted by the president, targeted by the FCC and Disney was concerned about mergers that could have been canceled and affected if they didn't bend the knee or kiss the ring. And so they, they folded, which I don't think they ever should have done because it just creates more of these sorts of situations. It just empowers what never should have been empowered to begin with. The beauty of what happened as a result is a, the consumer spoke, but I think maybe even more importantly, and this might be the story that's [00:30:00] gotten lost in all of this Kimmel is beloved in Hollywood. He is a major player in terms of connecting and bringing people together. And I think what ultimately forced Iger's hand and Disney's hand is the number of artists and creatives who said, either this changes and this gets fixed, or we don't ever work with you again. And I think that might have had a bigger influence than even all of the, rank and file subscribers who bailed.
Christi: How did you feel when you were watching all this unfold?
Jeff: I was horrified. I, I was, I was horrified as an American, I was horrified as a free speech advocate. And I was appalled as a Disney fan that a company that I have invested so much in would allow this to happen. Now, fortunately, the ship got righted. [00:31:00] But yeah, I mean it's, it's a black eye in my opinion.
Christi: Do you think The work that Dana Walden and Jimmy Kimmel did together is part of righting that ship.
Jeff: I Do
You know, I do think that is a step forward. I do think that is a step in the right direction. see, when I taught history or still teach history of Disneyland, my main thesis is, if you wanna know what's going on in the United States, watch what's happening at the Disney parks because it's a mirror, it's a reflection.
And that's been true from the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties and beyond. And so what happened with Kimmel again, is a mirror and a reflection of what's happening across the country. Good, bad, or indifferent.
Christi: When you go into the theme parks, and I'll tell you, I have never been to Disneyland and I've never been to Disney World, and that is gonna be one of my questions is about, you know, what do you tell people who've never been [00:32:00] before? But before we get to that, when you talk about what's happening inside, are you talking about like what, like the, the mood, the interactions between people or this larger business kind of thing?
Of the media conglomerations or all of the above? Or, what is the vibe? What do you feel that's different when you go in or what do you notice?
Jeff: Happening currently or just like in general, ever.
Christi: In general, the way you were saying over the decades that you see what's happening in the parks and inside, the business as a mirror to what's happening outside.
Jeff: Disneyland opened July 17th, 1955, and it was a massive live opening day broadcast on ABC television. 90 million viewers tuned in. This is like Super Bowl type numbers. It was the largest live broadcast to date surpassing the [00:33:00] previous record of 20 million viewers. When the United States tuned in to watch Queen Elizabeth be coronated. Well, when you watch that broadcast, everybody who walks into that park, with the lone exception of celebrities and stereo typed cast members, everybody who walks in is white dressed to the nines appearing as if they just came out of church and have, the perfect two and a half kids. Because in 1955, that's who America thought she was. That's who we wanted to be. And also understand, like the park opens six months before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus in Montgomery, Alabama, the park is not diverse because the country is not diverse.
Christi: [00:34:00] Was it segregated?
Jeff: No it, it, no, it wasn't. I mean, it's in the south, but it's in Southern California, not, you know, the deep south of Mississippi and Alabama.
But it is reflecting the norms and values of 1950s America. It's also reflecting the emergence of a new technology called television. It's also reflecting the most popular genre on television. IE the largest land at Disneyland when the park opened is Frontier Land because the most popular genre on television are the Westerns, the stories of the cowboys and the Indians.
Even Main Street, USA, you know, the single entrance in and the single exit out. As much as Walt talked about it being a reflection of his hometown when he was in Marceline, Missouri from ages four to age nine, it's way better than Marceline's Main Street or quite frankly, any [00:35:00] other hometown Americas Main Street.
Walt gives us the most idealized version of Main Street at the very moment. IE, the Eisenhower interstate system, the very moment that Main Street USA is literally gonna disappear across the country.
And so 30 years later when urban planners are like yeah, we probably shouldn't have done that.
Let's see what we could do to bring our main streets back. Guess where they went for the model?
They went to Disneyland they looked at Walt's Main Street
Christi: Isn't that interesting? I no, I didn't know that they had gone out there to see what they could discover out of the past. So your point is that as going forward, decade by decade, that the flavor, the tenor of the parks reflects what's happening. so what would you say now, is this part of what you're, this whole issue with the special [00:36:00] tiered pricing, but not the, I mean, is this also a reflection?
Jeff: Oh, absolutely. You know, the economic realities of the last 40 years have destroyed the middle class in America, and the gap between the haves and the have nots gets wider and wider and wider and wider and wider. And it, it's fascinating to watch. All of these arguments over culture wars because they are distractions from what's actually happening, which is, you know, billionaires have 12 homes, you and I can't get health insurance.
And so yeah, that gap is getting wider and wider. So is the experience at the Disney Parks
Christi: What would you have them do?
Jeff: good question. I don't blame them for what they're doing in the sense of like, I understand they're doing it because they can, but just because you can doesn't mean that you [00:37:00] should. Right. and so I would encourage them to try and go back and find those. Perks that guests enjoyed pre pandemic.
if people wanna buy um, a genie plus lightning lane and get to the front of the line on all the rides all day long, that's fine, but give the regular guests their three fast passes.
Again, I think this is a reflection of what's happening across the country. You know, the original hotels or resorts at Walt Disney World were the contemporary and the Polynesian. And then they opened those in 71. Epcot comes along in 1982 when the opening of Epcot, well now they're running a hundred percent occupancy at both of those hotels. They bring in new leadership, Michael Eisner, Frank Wells, and the first thing they see is that the hotels are at a hundred percent occupancy all year long. And they're like, you have 27,440 acres, build more hotels. [00:38:00] And so today there's like 36,000 rooms at the 30 some Disney resorts at Walt Disney World.
And they have three levels. They have value, they have moderate, they have deluxe. I couldn't tell you the last time they built a resort for a regular guests like you and me. The only thing they're building now are Disney Vacation Club resorts.
Christi: I see. Okay,
Jeff: I get it, obviously that's a huge, huge, huge money maker and you have insatiable demand for it. What about the folks who need the value property? What about the folks who need the moderate? What about the folks who are willing to spend some money, but they don't necessarily need to own anything?
They haven't built? I couldn't tell you the last time they built one of those.
Christi: So do you think that. Disney is lacking in creative foresight.
Jeff: I do. And that's an interesting question because you know, the difference between Walt's first studio, Laugh-O-Gram [00:39:00] Studio in Kansas City that went bankrupt in 1923 after only 18 months, and the second studio, the Disney Brothers Studio that today is the world's largest entertainment company. The difference between the two is not Walt. The difference is his brother Roy. Who was the financial genius, the accountant, and made sure Walt didn't drive the second studio off of the financial cliff, just like he had the first one. They had a wonderful relationship and a wonderful partnership. Walt was the creative, Roy was the financial genius. When Walt passed away six months before they broke ground in Florida, Roy delays retirement and spends the last five years of his life bringing phase one of Walt Disney World into fruition. But before that point, he had no creative experience. [00:40:00] He, he had been to Disney Imagineering three miles away in Glendale all of one time, and now he's gotta run the whole thing.
And so when Disney is doing really well. They have a very healthy understanding of the creative side of the house and the financial side of the house. When Michael Eisner came in, Michael Eisner was incredibly creative, but he was smart enough to come in with Frank Wells, who was his version of Roy. And the first 10 years were awesome.
And then Frank Wells is killed in a helicopter crash Easter Sunday of 1994. The next 10 years with Eisner weren't so great because he didn't have Wells to keep him in check. So again, you need that creative along with the accounting balance. And you know, Iger has been an interesting mix of both. I think since the [00:41:00] pandemic, there's been an obsessive focus on trying to get back the money lost during COVID.
Christi: Yeah. COVID is, it seems like for most businesses, is really kind of like this crater, is this before the pandemic and after the pandemic, and we all went, 2019 was such a great year.
Jeff: Yeah. We call it BC right before COVID.
Christi: yeah, exactly. Exactly. What, advice would you give for someone who's never been before?
Jeff: Well, my number one piece of advice is show up early. Don't do what I did in August of 88 and walk in three hours after the park has opened. I get asked all the time, when is the best time to go to Disney? And the answer is 8:00 AM.
Christi: 8:00 AM It is.
Jeff: Yep. Because the, first hour to hour and a half, two hours, you're going to pretty much have the park to yourself and you're gonna be able to do what you wanna [00:42:00] do, get on what you wanna get on, and experience the park. It's just that a park. And then once the crowds show up and you realize this myth that no one can afford to go to Disney anymore, is just that a myth.
You know, you, you start having a completely, you know, different experience. So you know, my first suggestion is, you know, show up early. My second suggestion is to understand that it's an experience it's an immersion, You're putting yourself into the story of Main Street, USA, you're putting yourself into the story of Pirates of the Caribbean.
You know, Walt was so particular about this, that on some of the original Fantasy Land attractions, like Snow White, Scary Adventures or Peter Pan's Flight, those heroes and those lead characters weren't anywhere to be seen in those stories because Christi Walt wanted you to be Snow White He wanted me to be Peter Pan.
And so [00:43:00] again, look at it through the lens of story and then ask yourself, what would it look like for me to be the hero or me to be the lead character?
And then third recognize that, you know, some of the extras aren't necessarily extras at a Disney Park. And what I mean by that is if you're going to Six Flags. Eat before you go. You don't need to pay 20 bucks for a hot dog. I actually think Disney food is somewhat reasonably priced and of decent quality, and some of their dining experiences are as good, if not better than some of the actual attractions. So again, getting that mindset of full immersion and all of it is part of a story that can be so immersive that you, you know, you leave the world in your troubles behind.
Christi: Is that how the magic is made?
Jeff: Yeah. a couple of fun stories here. Walt again built the park for the purpose of telling stories. He was accustomed to telling stories in a controlled sound stage in Hollywood. [00:44:00] Well, now he's gonna be telling stories in an outdoor environment. He's going to lose that control. Well, when they dredged out the Rivers of America, they had 350 tons of dirt.
Walt took that dirt and dumped it around the perimeter of the park, giving him an earthen berm. And it's that berm that keeps the magic of the Magic Kingdom in and the distractions of 20 million people in Southern California out. And that's why when you're at Disneyland, it's the only place that matters.
It's literally the only place in the world. Now, Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World doesn't have a berm because Walt purchased 27,440 acres. And so all of the land that Disney owns around Magic Kingdom, that is the berm. It's the only thing you see. It's the only thing you hear. It's the only thing you experience.
Christi: that's the buffer
Jeff: It's the buffer zone. And, and we can do that in our own life, right? You know, people ask [00:45:00] me all the time, well, how did you write your book? Or How do you achieve your goals? You build a berm and you protect those goals, you protect those dreams, and you spend a little bit of time, five 20 minutes every single day, zero distractions and completely focused just like when you're inside Disneyland.
You know, the only thing that exists is the Magic Kingdom, right?
Christi: and that's one of the leadership lessons.
Jeff: That's one of the leadership lessons. Build a berm. Protect your time, protect your peace. Protect your goals. Protect your success. Absolutely. But there, there's another fun story. Walt was taking evangelist Billy Graham on a tour of Disneyland one day. And about halfway through the tour, Billy stopped and said, you know, Walt, I've gotta, hand it to you. You have managed to create an amazing fantasy here. And Walt was incensed and he took his finger and he poked it into Billy Graham's chest. And he said, Billy, you don't [00:46:00] understand this.
This is reality. Everything outside, that's the fantasy. And so imagine for just a moment, if you could flip your life inside out like that, imagine for just a moment if you could be the creator of your own reality, because that was Walt's greatest creation. He didn't wanna react to the fantasy of the external world.
He wanted to create the realities of his own world, which was a reflection of what he had been thinking and dreaming about for decades.
Christi: Wow. That's a wonderful story. I like that. Walt Disney, I watched him on TV the Wonderful World of Disney and it was a Sunday night kind of a. I'm not gonna call it a battle, but it, it, it kind of was a battle of wills between my grandparents and us kids, whether it was gonna be Lawrence Welk or whether it was gonna be the Wonderful World of Disney.
[00:47:00] And we did win sometimes, and sometimes my grandparents won. But I will say from both of them, I got, I got so much from both Lawrence Welk's vision of America, that kind of fantasy and the magic and the fantasy of the Wonderful World of Disney. So I know what I was gonna ask you. do they ever call you up?
Did they ever ask you like, why don't you come consult with us
Jeff: I have done work with Disney. I have spoken to cast members. I have had the honor and privilege of interviewing on Disney property in front of thousands of Disney fans, Imagineers, executives, legends. You know, when I started out 10 years ago, I, I just wanted to teach a college course and then eventually write this book that I've been talking about for 20 years.
I had no idea that it would take me to the places that I have had the opportunities to go. I'm fortunate of the success. I'm [00:48:00] grateful that Disney and I have a very positive relationship. In fact, just a few weeks ago, my wife and I were at Walt Disney's Storybook mansion and we were there with the Disney archivist from the studio.
We were there with Floyd Norman one of the Imagineers from the Jungle Cruise. We were there with the Imagineer who came up with the famous wallpaper in the Haunted Mansion. yeah, I think there's this temptation to want to like control what happens when we do anything in our life and, and in our, and we have no control.
It's a complete illusion. and so, you know, if you have an idea, and I talk about this a lot, Walt's dream for an amusement park started when he took his daughters to Griffith Park and they'd ride the merry-go-round and he'd sit on this bench. And while he was on that bench, he began to think and dream of a place where parents and children could have fun together. Well, Christi, this podcast is a result of you thinking and dreaming. [00:49:00] My book is a byproduct of thinking and dreaming. Our ideas are the currency of the realm. Money is just a resource to make those ideas happen, right? The real difference between Walt and the rest of us is Walt got up off the park bench and did what it takes to make that idea a reality. you know, we might not have an idea that's going to change the world the way Disneyland did. But it might at least change our world. And so it's great that we have ideas. It's great that we have crazy thoughts. It's great that we dream. Let's get up off the park bench and take action and see what happens.
Christi: Well, and on that note, thank you. Thank you so much. this has been a wonderful conversation and I've really enjoyed it.
Jeff: If people wanna reach out to me, I love having conversations with folks about what they're working on and you can find [00:50:00] me at thewisdomofwalt.com.