Why would a successful author and speaker decide to pack up and move 3,000 miles west from the Hudson Valley to San Diego? Perhaps there was "time for one more adventure," with a willing former show dog as a constant companion.
Debby Mayer is a writer and talker in San Diego, California. She has published a novel, Sisters; a memoir, Riptides & Solaces Unforeseen, numerous short stories and reams of journalism. When she lived in New York State, she received two grants from the New York Foundation for the Arts: one in nonfiction, for “Therapy Dogs,” an excerpt from Riptides, and one in fiction for “The Secretary,” a short story published in The New Yorker. She holds an MA in creative writing from City College, where Sisters won the DeJur Award. Her day jobs have been arts administration (Poets & Writers, Inc.) and editing (Publications Office, Bard College). More at debbymayer.com.
Topics discussed:
"Go West, Old Woman" copyright (c) Debby Mayer. Read, recorded and used by permission.
"The Pandemic Café" copyright (c) Debby Mayer.
Travels with Sizzle
San Diego Union-Tribune
The Columbia Paper
Hudson, New York
Mira Mesa, San Diego
International travel
U.S. travel
Traveling solo as a widow
Traveling with pets
Driving cross-country with a dog
Traveling with a former show dog
Basenji breed
Buying a condo long-distance
Moving to San Diego
Music by Eves Blue, used by permission.
Connect:
Debby Mayer: https://debbymayer.com/
Moving Along: https://moving-along.simplecast.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MovingAlongPodcast
Christi Cassidy, host and producer: christi@movingalongpodcast.com
Christi: [00:00:00] Our guest today on moving along is Debby Mayer, a writer and speaker now living in San Diego. We met more than 25 years ago in New York City while working at Poets and Writers. Debby was the editor of the magazine living in the West Village and taking long jaunts up to the country on the weekends.
When my girlfriend and I moved back east from Santa Fe, one of the main reasons we chose Hudson, New York, just two hours north of New York city, is that Debby Mayer lived here. Welcome Debby to moving along.
Debby: Thank you, Christi I'm so glad to be here. Yes. You moved to Hudson and then I moved away.
Christi: Exactly.
You moved to San Diego.
Debby: I did,
Christi: But I want to ask you, you grew up in Schenectady New York, which is a small city, not far from the state capital of Albany and also the home of General Electric.[00:01:00]
Since then, you've moved several times and traveled extensively. I want to ask you what did travel and moving mean to you when you were growing up?
Debby: Hmm, good question. When I was growing up, you know, Shortly after the invention of electricity, one, didn't take the kids on airplanes. Then the way people do now, you know, they fly all over with their children.
So I didn't travel too much. When I was growing up. We had a camp at Lake George, which is north of Schenectady, which I loved. That was one of my favorite places. And then I went out, so when I graduated from college where I went to Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, so I'm still in New York State.
Right. I graduated from Skidmore and I went to New York City. And I was very happy there. I was working in New York City, but I'm trying to think of travel. I, I probably didn't really start to, [00:02:00] I'm trying to think of my first trip because I didn't have a lot of money. In New York City. So there wasn't a lot of money to travel with, but I think at one point then I'll place it here.
I took the train across Canada. I got on in Montreal, got off in Vancouver and it was four nights and three days. So you had a day of deciduous trees, a day of the flat Plains and then a day of the mountains with, fir trees. And this was, I think the first trip that I sort of organized by myself, you know, made my reservations, saved my money, made my plans.
And I just like to see things you know, moving along then as I got older, I made many trips by myself, eventually in groups. I didn't go to China by myself, but what I was looking for is things that I wanted [00:03:00] to see in person. I wanted to see China before it all looked like Chicago. I wanted to see Japan, Russia, and of course, Italy and Spain.
In college, I spent a summer in Europe and I had a lot of fun there
too.
Christi: Did you go by yourself or with a roommate?
Debby: I pretty much went by myself and I spent June in basically in London. And then in July I was taking a summer course in Dijon, France. I was at a university there, so that was my base.
And I met people there and that was fun. And then afterward I traveled in Germany and Austria, but I was pretty much by myself. I could pretty much speak the languages. And I guess I was just more Intrepid.
Christi: Do you think we traveled differently when we're in our twenties than now? When we're older?
Debby: I would expect. So, yes, I [00:04:00] think one's braver because one doesn't know the dangers really. I mean, I would travel with people that I had just met. And it was fine, thankfully, but now, and also traveling later I was traveling where I didn't know the language. I wasn't going to learn Chinese or Russian.
So I just felt safer going with a group. When I went to Russia, I wanted to go to Russia, sort of in the winter, you know, see the snow and stuff. And nobody else did. I was the only person who booked that trip. And so, you know, the company I negotiated and back and forth until we found a trip that I could afford and they could afford.
So I went by myself. All I wanted to do was spend a week in Moscow and we can St. Petersburg. And that's what I did. And I had a guide and a driver in each city and the guides were fascinating. The drivers were fascinating. So it was fun even though I was, it was a little [00:05:00] lonely because I couldn't quite manage dinner.
You know, they give you breakfast, the guide and I would buy lunch. And then I was kind of on my own for, for dinner. So sometimes it was a little hungry, but that was okay.
Christi: So it was a, it was a tour group of one.
Debby: Yeah, it was . Nobody else wanted to go to Russia in November. I can't imagine. Why
Christi: Was it really cold?
Debby: It, you know, it was cold when I looked at it, it seems like Moscow and St Peter's were kind of at the same latitude as New York. So I brought my winter storm coat, you know, and it had some boots and a hat and I was freezing. Wow.
Yeah.
Christi: Did you find yourself longing for LL Bean or something? How did you, did you find mittens?
Do they sell mittens on the street or,
Debby: you know, what I bought was the guide and I went to an open air market and I bought a fur hat and it was the [00:06:00] kind of place where you bargained for what they were offering. They would mention a price and, you know, it was expected that you would bargain it down. And I did the guide said I did very well bargaining.
Christi: That's great. And I assume the seller did not speak English. So the guide was your go-between
transplant.
Debby: The guide was assisting me. Yes. So I would think of the lowest price that I could possibly manage. I think that they might take, and I would give that price. And of course they would faint with shock.
And then I, you know, I would move it up a little too. We were both happy.
Christi: I love it. It's almost like what you did with the tour company that finally allowed you to go in November by yourself,
Debby: by myself. Yeah. And I did it when I bought my house in Hudson. When I moved there, I made an offer of the lowest price that I thought they would [00:07:00] possibly consider it and they were furious.
But then, you know, you, you, you move up and you, you come to terms, you come to an agreement.
Christi: After 25 years, your love your husband in all, but ceremony,falls ill. Spring becomes summer, and your days consists of driving a half hour each way to work your evenings of driving an hour each way to the hospital.
During these drives, you tell yourself a story in which you and your then dog drive west. Your Love's terminal. Your Love's illness is terminal and his dog elderly, you plan a meandering route across the country for you and your dog, visiting friends or staying in holiday Inns because they take dogs and have swimming pools.
You proceed slowly because finally you have no [00:08:00] appointments, no life and death decisions. We drive right to the Pacific and stand at the water, the dog backs at things and puddles. While you gaze out at the horizon, after a few minutes of this, you and the dog look at each other and you ask her, what shall we do next?
A friend takes you out for lunch during that horrible summer. And you tell her this story, fantasies are important. She said, And you think no, no, it's real.
You love dies in August. You need your job. After three years, tired of driving per every single thing, yearning for more human contact for a sign that people do not totally regret life. As Frank O'Hara wrote, you sell the little white [00:09:00] house and move. Wow. 13 miles to a small walkable city. Your summer lunch friend dies a few years later alone.
Christi: In your essay Go West Old Woman. You mentioned when you were younger, having gone to Anchorage. Right. And then did you go hiking with Dan out West, in Bryce Canyon and Zion?
Debby: Yes. In Bryce and Zion. We went hiking. Yeah. As, as I said, that trip to Anchorage was when I took the train across the country. Oh, that was the same trip named trip. Yes. I took the train to Vancouver and I had dreamed of taking the ferry up to Anchorage, but there was a strike. Yeah. It was ignominious. I had to fly into Anchorage ho-hum but I did.
Yes. That was all the same trip. When I visited my friend in Anchorage [00:10:00] and Dan wasn't particularly interested, I was surprised. And then I did get Dan, we did go to Utah and we camped and hiked in Bryce Canyon and Zion. And it was just so gorgeous. I would've gone back. We did not go back. And when we were there, we didn't get to Arches.
I would have loved to have gone to Arches I have not gone to Arches maybe I'll go from here.
Christi: You chastise yourself now, but only a little you and a long-term boyfriend saw a total eclipse of the sun from the best vantage point in the Canadian woods, then fled the hummingbird mosquitoes to the bay of Fundy you and the love of your life. Hiked trails at Bryson Zion. So magnificent that English faltered in describing them.
You wanted to go back to. But you wound up instead in Wyoming doing volunteer trail work [00:11:00] for this, you are less forgiving, but you did get an article out of it in a national magazine for enthusiasts of hiking, camping, mountain climb. And to be fair together, you've made multiple trips to Mexico and later you enjoyed cross country skiing, a sport you discovered in middle age in which you finally stayed warm, even outdoors in winter for a few hours, you still dreaded skiing downhill, but for the most part, you could do this and you began to look forward just a tiny bit to when.
Years later when you fell flat on your face and we're lucky not to have broken your nose, you switched to snowshoeing, which was just as much fun. And almost this warm.
Debby: Since you moved to San Diego, are there other vistas that perhaps you had in your sights or you didn't have in your sights, but now [00:12:00] having your sights?
Yeah, that's a good question because the answer is, I feel like being on the West Coast a lot is, is cutoff. I'll never get to Portugal. Let's be realistic. If I have to fly across the country and then fly another five hours or something to Portugal, what my Vista is, is Hawaii. Where, as I mentioned in my essay, I visited once and I loved it in another lifetime.
I would have gone a little farther to Hawaii, but that was not for this lifetime. So I hope to visit Hawaii, my friend in Anchorage. Who's still there likes to visit there because it's something that Alaska people do, you know, to get warm, they go to Hawaii. So I hope to go there and I want to explore California.
I mean, I've been to San Francisco a long time ago, but what happened was, so I moved to here in [00:13:00] February of 2019, and I was starting to explore my new city, my new state, you know, do a little outreach bus trips with friends . And then as you know, everything's shut down. So I really didn't do any exploring in 2020.
And now I'm just starting again again with day trips. You know, I'm thinking about your question. I don't see a lot of travel in my future. You know, I have friends in Colorado that I'd like to visit. I still have friends up near Seattle that I'd like to visit, but I see myself as staying kind of local.
Christi: That's so interesting because having lived in Santa Fe, I can say but Colorado is so close and it really is. And when you think about where Palm Springs is, it's, you know, Arizona is a day.
Debby: Yeah. Right. what I'm hoping to have happened. This year maybe is that a [00:14:00] couple of friends that are interested in visiting me.
So I'm thinking about itineraries things we can do. One of them wants to see Joshua Tree. The national
Christi: park. Yes.
Debby: Yeah, we should do this because the poor Joshua with trees are dying from the drought. So we've got to get there. And there are things to do here in San Diego that I look forward to showing people and learning about myself because I haven't been there.
Torrey Pines, the wonderful state park here in San Diego. Doesn't let you bring your dog. Well, forget it. I haven't seen Torrey Pines
Christi: well, that's a perfect segue because I wanted to ask you about travels with Sizzle. This is your regular humorous snippets.
Debby: Oh, yes. She just came inside.
Christi: I was going to say, I hope Travels with Sizzle becomes a New Yorker style book replete with cartoons [00:15:00] line drawings at the very least of your travels with Sizzle who is a Basenji former show dog. And describe Sizzle for us and your secret to success in traveling with Sizzle,
Debby: Okay. Sizzle is like having a 14 year old girl with you at all times. You know, there's a lot of attitude. There's a lot of eye-rolling. So that's the way she is. It's very nice of you to talk about travels with Sizzle. We'll talk about that more too
Christi: okay. I'm laughing.
Debby: Okay. But right now, so let's see, you wanted to know traveling and sizzle or
Christi: yeah. Traveling, moving. What's the secret to success with the 14 year old girl? I mean, former show dog.
Debby: Yeah. The former show dog. Well I don't know. I used to say to her, she, you know, she was cold too.
We were both cold back in Hudson and she would say. If we [00:16:00] ever talked about moving, I would say sizzle, you got to get us a book deal. You got to get us a movie deal. And what happened eventually? I don't know if you want to talk about this is I realized I didn't need a book deal or a movie deal. I could manage moving west with what I had and poor sizzle just had to go along.
I carried across the country in our little car in our little Prius that kind of looks like a Subaru, you know, that style of Prius, I carried this damned thing, you know, a plank that she could walk up into the car because I was so afraid, we'd be out in Lawrence, Kansas, and she wouldn't get in the car.
Well, we never once used the plank because the car was our one consistency. I got in the car. I was going to get in the car sizzle, got in the car. She didn't complain. The other thing, speaking of consistency is that sizzle is a little clinging [00:17:00] now because I'm, I'm the only consistent thing in her life.
Over the last four years, you know, she came to me in Hudson. We were there. We drove a long way now we're here, but always there has been me or is sizzle might tell you there's also the bed
so this my conversation. So I say to Sizzle tomorrow, all this was back in March 1st. 2019 tomorrow, sizzle all hell breaks loose because the furniture was coming and she says, yeah, but we get the bed. Right. Cause we've been sleeping on the floor on a futon. I say, yeah, well with any luck, we'll get the bed.
And she says, and the pillows we'll get the pillows. Yes. I say, we'll get the pillow. Cause that's sort of sizzle's focus. She had me and she had her food bowls not her real food bowls they were on the truck. [00:18:00] But a food bowl,
Christi: Her toys.
Debby: Yeah. She had toys, but she doesn't really play with toys. Older dogs are often not very playful and it's Sizzle.
I keep trying to teach her new things right now. I'm trying to teach her to play with her yellow tennis ball. And she is just so perplexed. Basinjis are like that. They're smart, but they're stubborn. You know, I roll the ball to her and she says, why should I do this?
Christi: It's that, that just the nature of the breed?
Debby: Yes. I believe it's the nature of the breed. They're smart, but they're stubborn.
Christi: So isn't one of the reasons you chose to move to San Diego that you have friends out there. Who are, are they breeders since you
Debby: yeah. No, they're not breeders, but they are basenji lovers. And they each, when I moved out here, they each had two Basenjis.
And they were instrumental in bringing me out here. Tamara started a [00:19:00] Facebook page, so we could discuss listings without a lot of confusing emails. It was called something like finding a sizzling California home.
Christi: Wow. That's great. And they did find you your condo, right?
Debby: It helped me find this condo Lynn gave me the connection to the real estate agent that Lynn had used when she moved and Lynn made a spreadsheet. And so the agent was actually going on a bit of a vacation. It was that summer. And so she gave me a bunch of zip codes and Lynn made a spreadsheet of the neighborhoods in these zip codes.
And then there was a column for Tamar his comments and a column for Lynn's comments on each neighborhood. And they didn't always agree. So that was very helpful. You know, it was awkward for me to print it out, but I did, I printed it out, take it together. And that was my Bible. As this agent sent me listings, they send you listings every night.
I would get an automatic [00:20:00] batch of listings from his agency. And that was like, it was the one fun thing I had that summer. So I would look at these condos and, and you know what it's like every time you open it up, this might be the perfect one. It's like looking at apartments, or houses.
Christi: And so that's an awful lot of preparation. And what surprised you in this whole process of looking for. The perfect condo. The one,
Debby: It's sort of surprised me when the first time I talked to the real estate agent on the phone, she said you don't have enough money to move here, to live here.
Oh yeah. Welcome to the neighborhood. I said, well, I think I do. Let's see. I don't know if there were any particular surprises. I'm trying to think from getting all these listings all summer. I made, I typed it up because I type up [00:21:00] everything. I typed up a list of what I must have and what would be nice.
So must is obviously a safe neighborhood. Must the place must take dogs. Must have a pool because why else am I moving out here? Off street parking, because I looked at a couple of cheaper places that didn't even have off street parking. You don't want to do that. And some other things, and then other things I was flexible about, I didn't need a hot neighborhood.
I mean, it would have been nice, but I couldn't, I really couldn't afford it.
Christi: Hot. You mean trendy
Debby: Trendy like moving to the Greenwich Village of San Diego that wasn't going to happen. And so I ended up in a neighborhood called Mira Mesa, which is sort of a as Nowheresville of San Diego
Christi: And how's it going?
Debby: Oh, it's goin' great. Because it's perfect. for Sizzle and me, it has grass and trees and landscaping. The buildings are low, so you can always see the sky. There are places to walk, [00:22:00] not parks. There aren't any parks, sadly, but we have nice walks. Because we can always see some greenery. And I like my condo community a lot.
It's 88 units, which is relatively small for Southern California. I have a car port. My car is covered. We have a small pool. It's kind of small, but I manage
Christi: But you're not going to move back.
Debby: No, I wasn't thinking well. Oh, that's too
cold.
Christi: You're walking home from CVS where you have scored another over-the-counter medication that might help your allergies. You're wearing a jacket and hat socks on your feet and a scarf around your neck and you're freezing the freezing. And you think I can't take this anymore. Arriving home, you greet sizzle [00:23:00] and go upstairs to your laptop.
You Google San Diego condominium $250,000. And what a sweet place. Google shows you with a swimming pool, patio carport. You try to be skeptical. You look at each photo twice, you study the description, trying to read between the lines. Then you send the link to your friend in San Diego who knows everything.
Is this in a bad neighborhood? She replies within the hour, not a bad neighborhood, but it's near rose Creek. So it could be stinky. Sometimes here, try this one. She attaches a link for another condo, even sweeter at $250,000 swimming pool, balcony, garage. And you think I can do this? You think there's no rule that says I have to be brave about the.
[00:24:00] And you think I have time for one more adventure. It's not about remaking yourself. You'll be the same. Over-committed disorganized person. You've always been wherever you've lived. It's not about changing you, but place driving around one day, you think maybe I should live somewhere where I have no memory.
Christi: In Go West Old Woman, you write that it's not about what I leave here, but what I find there that you are ready for one more adventure, where you have friends, but no memories.
Debby: That's right. I needed something new to explore. I had lived in New York State, both in New York City and upstate all my life and I'd loved New York State.
It offers so much variety and there would be plenty for me to still explore in New York state, but I wanted something new. And [00:25:00] so the exploration by the way is, is also mental. I love reading about California history. I have these books about California history and California, this and that.
And, that's what I want to explore now is a new state, a new, a new land, a new area.
Christi: So you believe in neuroplasticity that our brains don't just turn to concrete that we're still kind of sponges as we get older.
Debby: Oh yes. Very much so. That's a good point. Certainly,
Christi: And this is it. Your walking home from CVS, but also more to the point is it's not about remaking yourself. You'll be the same over committed disorganized person . What do you think?
Debby: Oh, it's something that I thought of because I don't know if you know, Sarah Sterling, she lives in Hudson.
She's very nice. And we were talking about moves or something [00:26:00] and she said, yeah, you always think, that you'll remake yourself and be a different person in a different place. And I realized that I shouldn't think that. It's not about remaking yourself. You'll be the same over committed disorganized person.
You've always been wherever you live. It's not about changing you, but place driving around one day, you think maybe I should live somewhere where I have no memories and that's true. That's a true scene. I was driving around Columbia County and thinking that wherever I went there, I had memories, which was fine, but maybe I should go somewhere where I had friends, as I say at the end where I have friends, but I have no memory and just make new memories.
Christi: It's a longer view. Right?
Debby: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. I was trying to think about this [00:27:00] before our meeting. And I thought, well, really, it was kind of an existential move. I was cold all the time and I was tired of being cold.
I wanted someplace warm.
Christi: Are you writing for any of the local papers out there yet?
Debby: No. You know, well, no, I haven't. I did have a poem in the San Diego union Tribune. I was so pleased. They were starting, you know, because nothing was going on and they were desperate for content in their arts and culture section. They took things from readers and it just happened. I was sitting in my car, able to take my mask off and drink a Starbucks latte.
And I wrote a poem called Pandemic Cafe.
Christi: You want to read it for us?
Debby: If I can find it? Here we go. A Pandemic Cafe.
Sitting alone in my car mask. Finally off, I can drink a latte [00:28:00] listening to Michael Jackson, Ryan beat it with defeated on sunny 98.1 in the Vaughn's parking lot under a Marine sky on a spring afternoon at home, my dog's sizzle lies on the couch resting. We need time apart and the monthly report of my decimated retirement fund lies on the counter on opened.
I've deposited the final check from my part-time job, but my sweet shelter is paid for the fridge is full and my credit card stands ready at zero balance friends and family report in healthy. I wake each morning singing thing.
Christi: That's lovely.
Debby: Thank you.
Christi: I would have published it too. If I were them,
Debby: I had a column of poetry and they put mine at the top and the image was, was a Vons, which is like ShopRite.[00:29:00]
Okay. I was so pleased because I got an illustration. Woo. I was very pleased with that experience.
I had other ideas for them. They weren't interested. But what happened to me, Christi, as I mentioned in this poem is, is that I was laid off from my part-time job. And I was suddenly free to write for myself. And I feel like Governor Newsome, I waited all my life for Governor Newsome to come along and tell me just to stay home and write.
So he did, and I did. And I got a lot of other stuff completed.
Christi: That's wonderful. And the part-time job was the one from here, right? The Columbia Paper.
Debby: That's right. I was still working for the Columbia Paper, you know, just keeping myself on Eastern time, submitting my work.
Christi: Yeah. So in a way, the pandemic, not [00:30:00] only did it give you that time to write, which is a gift for any writer, but it also settled you into Pacific time.
Debby: That's true. Christie. That's a very good point.
Christi: Yes. So do you still, get up bright and early and you, you used to always get up bright and early when you lived here
Debby: at five 30 so that I can write for an hour before breakfast. And then sizzle and I do breakfast in a walk and then I could come back and write some more.
I didn't have to worry about the Columbia Paper because it's wonderful. It was, it was just wonderful. You know, I did like three deep revisions of my novel. I feel that I've completed it. I finally launched my website, which I'd been talking about for years.
Debby: This year I've completed a draft of Travels with Sizzle.[00:31:00] And what am I doing this year? Oh, I'm revising my will, which is very important.
Christi: And you recommend that everybody do that. Whether or not they're traveling or moving it's about life transitions as well.
Debby: Oh yes. Yes I do. When I think of my will.
I just trembled, but now I have someone revising it. You know, I, I found a nice lady lawyer in the neighborhood. If the walking were more pleasant around here, I could walk to her office. But anyway, I've made all these arrangements for Sizzle should I predecease Sizzle. And so just casually at the end of our meeting the lawyer said, what kind of dog do you have?
I said a basenji. And she said, oh, I have two, and she whipped out her phone and showed me pictures of her Basenjis before showing me photos of her three beautiful children.
Christi: I love that. I have to say priorities, right?
Debby: Isn't that funny? Yes. The dogs have an Instagram page. [00:32:00]
Christi: Her dogs,
Debby: her dogs,
Christi: maybe sizzle we'll have an Instagram page soon too.
Debby: Maybe that's what she needs.
Christi: Maybe. Yeah, she doesn't need a tennis ball. Debby. She needs an Instagram page.
Debby: You are so right. That's what she's been trying to tell me
Christi: when she keeps looking at the ball, looking at you with a, with an eye roll. All right.
Debby: And where's my instagram page.
Christi: Exactly. Ugly, except watch out.
She'll be getting onto Tik TOK before, you know,
Debby: I know really
Christi: Debby, this has been great. Thank you so much for sharing your stories of travel and moving across country to San Diego.
Debby: You're most welcome Christi my pleasure.
Christi: Well, I want to give you a shout out.
You can read more about Debby's books and her writing and her talks because she is also a professional [00:33:00] speaker@Debbymayer.com. That's D E B B Y M a Y E r.com. Thanks Debby.
Debby: Thanks Christi