Cultural intelligence for travelers and expats from Beyond Tourism founder Renae Ninneman. Nearly arrested for jaywalking in Seoul, she shares lessons from living and teaching in South Korea, navigating “kindness” abroad, and the humiliation of a workplace misstep due to her own cultural blinders.
Renae Ninneman, founder of Beyond Tourism (goingbeyondtourism.com), helps travelers prepare culturally for international travel and moving abroad.
Born in a Dutch enclave in western Michigan, Renae explains how living in Seoul, South Korea for a year teaching English without cultural preparation led her to focus on “below the iceberg” cultural expectations. Travelers often dismiss discomfort as “it’s the culture,” Renae says, instead of naming and exploring what’s happening and seeking a human connection. Stereotyping and ethnocentrism often play a role.
Renae contrasts differing expressions of kindness and friendliness in the U.S. compared with Germany and Latvia, and direct versus indirect communication, describing her approach as a mix of research and experience. She earned certification in the Cultural Intelligence Model (with four CQ dimensions, including CQ strategy for preparation and in-the-moment awareness and follow-up reflection).
The conversation touches on travel for missionary work, her parents’ initial opposition to South Korea and their later visits. She advises travelers to start with self-reflection on their own cultural values, then identify differences in others and, finally, to adapt behavior, noting that “kindness” does not always translate across cultures.
Renae shares some revealing stories of her own learning process, including a humiliating workplace gaff while she was working in the U.S. on refugee resettlement and the damage her collegial relationship suffered because of it.
Nearly arrested for jaywalking, she recounts a frightening incident in South Korea where she was confronted by a stranger, police were called, and she narrowly escaped what could have been a dire situation.
Timestamps
00:00 Moving Along
00:35 Introduction to Renae Ninneman
01:00 Beyond Tourism
02:16 Teaching English in South Korea
04:06 Cross-Cultural Disconnects
08:42 The Cultural Intelligence Model - Cultural Intelligence as a Skill
10:58 Cultural Intelligence Skills for Business Travel
12:25 Growing Up in Western Michigan's Dutch Community
14:38 Learning the Language
15:32 Cross-Cultural Competence and the Most Humiliating Moment
20:11 When Being Direct Has Its Advantages
20:57 Direct and Indirect Communication Styles
22:45 Where to Start When Preparing to Travel or Move to Another Country
27:16 Kindness as a Universal Language?
29:22 Almost Arrested in Korea
35:15 Contact Renae and Going Beyond Tourism
Resources
Beyond Tourism
https://goingbeyondtourism.com
The Cultural Intelligence Center, https://culturalq.com/
The Culture Factor Group, Helsinki, https://www.theculturefactor.com/
Geert Hofstede (1928 – 2020), https://geerthofstede.com/
Erin Meyer, The Culture Map
David Livermore, Digital and Divided
Contract Renae Ninneman, founder of Beyond Tourism:
[00:00:00]
Christi: Welcome to Moving Along. Renae Ninneman is my guest today. She is the founder of Beyond Tourism. Her website is goingbeyondtourism.com.
Renae helps people prepare culturally for travel to different countries and to different cultures. Welcome, Renae.
Renae: Thank you. I'm thrilled [00:01:00] to be here.
Christi: Ah, glad to have you. I wanted to ask you, how did you come to found Beyond Tourism?
Renae: Talking about, and learning about cross-cultural things has been, something I've been fascinated with for decades ever since I lived in South Korea after college for a year. So over 20 years, like I just kept learning and having more and more experiences. And it was just sort of a moment where I realized like, I have a lot of knowledge and experience in this.
And I think that it's something that needs to be talked about more, you know, especially within the tourism industry, but just in general. There's not a lot of people, not enough people in my opinion, talking about cultural differences. And I don't mean like, visible differences, languages and food and holidays, but like the below the iceberg cultural expectations that people [00:02:00] don't usually talk about. and that's what I thrive on. And so it just kind of struck me like, I could do this, you know, I could help people who travel internationally for leisure. I could help people who are moving abroad. And this is something that I love, and so why not give this a try?
Christi: You came to this primarily from your experience in South Korea, correct?
Renae: Yeah. So I taught English in South Korea to kids. I lived in Seoul for a year after I got my bachelor's degree.
I went in blind, right? Like I didn't know about, well, not much about South Korean culture. I had known some Korean people who really kind of paved the way for me to make this decision. And I just went there and I was like, okay, I'm here. I'm gonna live in another country for a year. Woo-hoo. It's gonna be great. I had absolutely no cultural preparation. I knew nothing about what it means to interact cross-culturally and. [00:03:00] I think I did okay. But looking back on it, I wish I knew more.
Right. And again, that's another reason why I started my business because I don't want people to like, wish that they knew more. I feel like I missed something. I could have done so much better. You know, I could have learned better, I could have interacted better, I could have made more friends.
So I think about that sometimes. I don't wish that on other people. I want everyone to take advantage of their cross-cultural experiences because they're so powerful.
Christi: You said you had some Korean friends is that why you decided to go to South Korea?
Renae: you know, it was a big influence. It, South Korea is one of the countries where you can usually get a job teaching English to kids and these private companies with just a bachelor's degree. being a native English speaker. And so this was 20 years ago too, so I don't know, I haven't checked on the industry to see how much it has changed, but in general it was a really interesting opportunity for me and it was really appealing.
So it was like, yes, I knew some Korean people and [00:04:00] also this country can offer me an opportunity to work and live there, and so I did.
Christi: I think for a lot of people, the first time you dive into a different culture, even if it's just going to Canada or Mexico for us Americans. there's a bit of culture shock regardless because either you think you are the same person or they're the same as you.
that, would you say that's where the disconnect starts?
Renae: Well, I think the disconnect is. That peoples have an understanding that culture is different, right? They just, they have this awareness, like, yes, culture is different. And so they go into any sort of intercultural or travel experience, and they, they just sort of know that. And so when things feel weird or uncomfortable, or is different than what they expect like this whole host of experiences that they just are like [00:05:00] not understanding, they just say, oh, the, it's the culture. It's the culture. And then they stop they don't necessarily like continue learning, right? They just sort of dismiss their discomfort by saying it's culture. And then what I really think is important is you can name these things, right? You can discuss these things. You don't have to just dismiss it.
you can engage with that discomfort and explore what does. mean in this moment? Like, why are you uncomfortable? What is it about this experience that's making you uncomfortable? let's talk about it and explore it and ask questions I think the biggest mistake that I made, and a lot of people make is that they just, they just call it culture and then they walk, they walk on and they don't take that learning opportunity to explore like the depth that that happens in cross-cultural communications and like how deep our own behaviors go [00:06:00] because we were raised in a particular culture, and we don't often identify that ourselves.
And yeah, it's just left on the table
Christi: Give me an example from your travels.
Renae: So here's an example. Americans are very warm and expressive, That's pretty common for us. And so for Americans, our sort of perception of being kind, being nice is this warm and expressive approach to engaging with people. And so there's parts of the world that are certainly the same way, but there are many places in the world that are not that way.
They are not warm and expressive. And so I traveled to Germany earlier this year and Latvia as well. And both of those countries, the people were not warm and expressive like me In these types of situations, what you have to realize is like if I were to go around the world and like expect that kindness and engagement is always warmth and expressiveness, these are cultural values, right? [00:07:00] Then I'm gonna think that German people and Latvian people are not nice. They're rude and they're cold, Because I haven't examined my own understanding of how my culture treats and addresses friendliness and kindness, And so I go into these interactions like, well, why aren't people being nice to me? Because they're not being warm and expressive. Many years later now I understand that difference. And so when I was traveling in Germany, I met many wonderful people who were very welcoming, but they weren't warm and expressive. And then I met somebody who was, she was a German woman, and she was warm and expressive, and I was like. Something about her just makes me feel so comfortable. What, what was it? What is it? And it, it cracks me up now thinking back on it. And I'm like, she just felt so warm to me. And that felt comforting and familiar. And I'm like, it's the culture. Duh. after a few months of reflection and a little bit in the moment, like, I knew I [00:08:00] could identify the fact that I like this woman, and she made me feel comfortable.
Not that the other people didn't, but there was certainly like a little bit of like, well, what's going on? They're not like what I'm used to. She just felt comfortable to me. Had I not like processed that I might come back thinking that German people or Latvian people were cold. I couldn't connect with them and they weren't very nice to me. and then I could go around with that stereotype in my mind about a particular country or culture but the problem was me, you know what I mean? I hadn't examined my own expectations on what is kind in another country.
You know, it's not warmth and expression, facial expressions. It, that's not what it is all over the world.
Christi: Do you do this homework in advance or do you. Just kind of read the moment or how do you make your assessments?
Renae: Yeah, that's a great question. So. I'm a big major nerd on this topic. Like I, I read [00:09:00] books, I read scholarly articles, and I love talking about it, and I love thinking about it. there's one particular model that I'm certified in, it's called the Cultural Intelligence Model from the Cultural Intelligence Center. their model, they have 10 cultural values and they have a particular cultural intelligence model. So cultural intelligence as a skill that everybody can improve in. so there are four dimensions of cultural intelligence, and one of them is called strategy, CQ strategy. CQ strategy is a skill where you, prepare for intercultural exchanges and do research and like think about like the setting you might be in and then how you might alter some of your behaviors. And then there's awareness in the moment where you're like. Observing yourself and observing other people and trying to adjust as you go. And then there's like the follow up where at the end, like maybe you ask some questions to clarify what you thought you understood or maybe something you did misunderstand. then that's one aspect [00:10:00] of this cultural skill building. And so that's one of my favorites and I'm pretty good at that. But I'll also say like, this just comes after years and years of interacting cross-culturally. Like and I, I sat down not long ago and I counted all the different cultures and countries of people I've worked with. And so I have done a good amount of traveling and I have lived in South Korea, but also a lot of my experience comes from just living and working in the United States in settings with people from all different countries. So like I haven't traveled maybe as much as some people have, but I have a significant. Body of experience working with people from other cultures, from like 30 different countries all over the planet. I also just have experience from that. I've picked up tips and tricks and, self-awareness over the years that way as well. So it's a mixture of like my own passion and experience and also a mixture of learning from this particular cultural intelligence model.
Christi: I'm assuming you work with [00:11:00] a lot of business people,
Renae: I have not done a lot of that, no. there's a few corporations that do this a lot. what I'm really wanting to do, so my business is still young and really wanna work with more people who are traveling internationally or moving abroad. The corporate world has a lot of these resources already
Christi: Well, I was thinking there's a lot of people who travel for business, and I never hear them talking about this kind of cultural intelligence, there's a lot of lessons learned after the fact, but I don't really, I don't, I'm not on the inside of the corporations either.
So you're saying that they're already trained, most of them.
Renae: that's where the, a lot of the research has happened. You know, when I came back from South Korea, one of the books I read was by Geert Hofstede, that Dutch researcher who sort of pioneered it and he worked with IBM, there's also the Culture Factor [00:12:00] Group. They exist very much in the corporate world.
There's Erin Meyer and The Culture Map. Her research and her book is incredible. I'm gonna agree with you though. There are plenty of business people who aren't aware of this and aren't learning, and they're gonna struggle so much without some basic cultural knowledge.
And I will happily work with anybody, right? Because I believe the skill is so, so important.
Christi: You grew up in a Dutch enclave in western Michigan, right? what did travel and moving mean to you as a kid?
Renae: It wasn't really a thing that was an option. People who traveled did it for religious purposes, they were going to be missionaries.
Christi: Oh.
Renae: That was the only way that I was aware that people could travel for most of my life. And so when I was in high school, I did go on a, a missions trip to Mexico, was my first time.
I really wanted to go, I wanted to go [00:13:00] so bad and there were lots of other opportunities that I dreamed of taking just because that was going to get me out, you know what I mean? That was the only frame of reference I had for travel for a long time. Until then, I, met Korean people and I learned about this opportunity to teach English and I was like, can just move there and have a job. Absolutely. Sign me up.
that was my first chance to really get out and do it on my own.
Christi: Were your parents supportive?
Renae: No, they did not want me to go.
Christi: Oh, well talk about that.
Renae: were okay with the religious travel, but they did not want me to go to South Korea. No,
Christi: after you were there for a year, they didn't come visit you? I take it.
Renae: no, they actually
Christi: Ah, great.
Renae: they, they came around.
Christi: What was that like?
Renae: Well, I enjoyed it. It was they came twice. They came two different times. They had to split it up. But had a brother who was pretty young and when my mom came over with my brother and my sister, she, I think [00:14:00] was really uncomfortable and struggled with that. ' it was unfamiliar to her.
She had never traveled in a place like that. So she, was really uncomfortable and had a hard time with it. Especially I think, 'cause my brother was a bit younger. But she came back later by herself again, and then had a great time. So I think she was maybe just worried as a mom with her kids being in an unfamiliar
Christi: Mm-hmm.
Renae: And she didn't handle some of the adventures of getting lost like I did.
Christi: Mm-hmm.
Renae: she, that wasn't really her jam where I was like, oh, this is my daily life. I'm just getting lost and figuring my way out. And just having all these random experiences in South Korea.
Christi: You really made an effort to learn the language and didn't stick with the group of, I guess other Americans or other English speakers who were there when you were teaching.
Renae: I did try because something in me knew, like, I think, like I mentioned before, I think a lot of people have this Inkling that if they wanna learn [00:15:00] about a place it's good to like explore the culture and meet people. So I did, I tried I did take Korean lessons for most of the time that I was there. I was like very basically conversational. By the time I left. I was always the one ordering the food in the restaurants in my friend group. And I really did try my best. And that was a long time ago, so I don't, I can't really speak it now.
Christi: I was gonna ask if you'd been back.
Renae: I have not, I desperately want to, but it's just, it's a big trip. So I'd, I'd love to go back.
Christi: I want to read you something that you wrote. this must be from your website. Cross-cultural competence is not about perfection. It's about humility, curiosity, and the willingness to learn when things get uncomfortable. And I wondered what your most humiliating moment has been in your travels.
Renae: Oh, okay. So gimme a minute to [00:16:00] think. I mean, I, my most humiliating, I would say actually one of my most humiliating and embarrassing cross-cultural moments or like painful, didn't even happen internationally. And I, I mean, I had plenty of awkward experiences, but when I was working in a, a diverse workplace I was doing refugee resettlement and I worked with a wide variety of individuals from all over the place.
it was a stressful time in the workplace and I was working with a woman. She had sort of stepped in to help out with some of the new refugee arrivals. And I, she had not been properly trained and I was really direct with her and was like, okay, well you need to do this.
And she's like, well, I did do that. I'm like, no, you did. You didn't do it. This is where it should be or how it should be done. I wasn't trying to be rude or anything, but she became very [00:17:00] flustered. And really upset. And I was surprised. I was like, I, I thought I was just telling you like what needed to happen in this particular setting. And my intention was not to be mean or cruel, but that is how she felt, right? That I was being mean to her and cruel to her. And it was primarily because of my very direct communication style, And so this is a cultural value that I talk about a lot. that Americans, it's very common for Americans to communicate very directly. and so we, we just say it like it is, right? Like I was telling her, that's not how you should do it. You should do it like this. I could see, and that this is, you know, again, years after this experience, I can like put words to what happened and that like. I really contributed to defraying a relationship with my very direct communication. if I could have learned how to [00:18:00] communicate more like indirectly or more softly, or more gently with her I think that would've been able to preserve our relationship. Because I did really like her and I thought she was wonderful and I was so grateful for her, she was doing for us in that, in that time when we were all stressed out in the workplace. So I think it wasn't like a public humiliation or anything like that, but it was really something that I think about frequently. Like I really messed up in that moment. My cultural blinders led to our relationship becoming more tense and difficult, and so when I talk about like, the importance of us understanding our own culture, our own behaviors because it can have a huge impact on our relationships. Like I know this, right? Like, I know our culture, if we don't examine ourselves, we can go out into the world and cause a lot of harm. And to me, [00:19:00] building those relationships and having those strong kind open, honest relationships cross-culturally and having the benefit of knowing people who are different than you, that is the most amazing thing.
You know, connecting with other humans who are different than us and learning from them, right? That is so incredibly powerful to learn about the world. How people differ. And so I think about that sometimes and use, use this as a great example of like, don't like ruin your relationships because you are so caught up in your own behavior.
Sometimes you have to change the way you communicate, to preserve and strengthen a relationship and put people at ease, It's kind of like the flip side of my experience. When I was in Germany, the woman who was warm and expressive to me, she was German. she made me feel at ease, She used her skills to put me at ease, an [00:20:00] American, in her country. And when I was working with this other woman, I could have put her at ease if I had been able to communicate in a different way with her.
Christi: More than once. Okay. I'm a New Yorker, right. Okay. You Midwesterners, you don't know about direct. But I can't tell you more than once. more than once. I have had people come up to me in New York and say, excuse me. All they want is directions. It's like, no, don't say that. Don't say, excuse me, because we think you're gonna ask for money.
I know being direct, it's it, but on the other hand, it's like there's times when I really, we, we in New York need people to be more direct and not be so polite. 'cause it, it wastes time. So that's maybe another angle on this.
Renae: Well that is, that is a very, [00:21:00] that is a culturally specific angle, and you're right, like the Midwest is not as direct as New York. And, you know, the Netherlands is very notoriously, painfully direct sometimes too, so
Yes, the, the, this is the way that people behave in New York City, and there's nothing wrong with that.
there's nothing wrong with. Any of these values, it's direct versus indirect communication style, but they're, neither of them is bad. It's just which one are you familiar with? And then the question of do you assign, like, are you judgmental towards someone who has a different value from you?
I liked your approach where you're like trying to give them tips. You know, you're like, Hey, let me just like give you a tip here. If you're gonna be in New York, here's a tip for you. You're trying to teach them, right? Instead of just being like, I mean, there's probably a little bit of this too.
Like, oh my gosh, not another person. I'm so sick of them. Can't, they just can't, they just learn, don't, shouldn't, they know like they have to learn, you know, like that's sort of like really negative judgment [00:22:00] mindset towards somebody who is behaving differently than you. And there's so many things like that we run into. again, when you get stuck in this sort of negative, judgmental thing in your mind that. That's a problem because that can block a possible relationship opportunity. Right. you are right that it is both ways because if you're coming to New York, that's a cross-cultural experience maybe for some people who are trying to be more polite. And so they are gonna have to learn because that's the host community,
Christi: Well, and I tell people actually New Yorkers are a lot nicer than you think they are. they'll drop everything and walk with you to the train station to make sure you get there as long as you just don't say, excuse me. Can I ask you a question?
Renae: right, right. Right.
Christi: What advice do you offer people besides, signing up with you and, bringing you on as a coach and, and help meet as they prepare to travel or to live abroad? where do you start?
Renae: I tell them to start [00:23:00] by reflecting on their own cultural values. I mean, that's absolutely is the first step. When you're thinking about the progression of. What it takes to interact, positively effectively cross-culturally. you have to start by understanding your own behaviors, why you act the way you do and understanding that it is, that it is in fact a New Yorker or in a Midwestern or an American mindset that makes you act or believe that certain thing. You have to know why you are acting the way you act. Then when you go into another country and you interact with people from other cultures, you can start to see the differences in a lot of ways it's, it's a mindset shift, it's a skill, but it's also a little bit of a mindset shift because you are. Inspecting yourself, but you're also like trying to see the cultural behaviors in other people [00:24:00] too. So if you're like, well, I'm a direct communicator, and you know that, then when you go abroad you can start to see like, oh, they're communicating indirectly. So you can, you're able to observe that see how it's done. then the final step is adaptation, right? So if you know how you engage your behaviors, you are able to recognize it in other people, then you can adapt. like the hardest part is the internal stuff and acknowledging and learning that the way you think and the way you believe and the way you behave is because you were raised in a particular place and you were taught that this is the way that you should behave and believe and act. and sometimes that way that you were taught that you should behave and believe and act. Is just a product of your culture. And when you go to another place in the world, you have to let that go and realize it's not bad to, behave a way that maybe you were taught [00:25:00] was bad. You know, like the, in that indirect communication is deceptive.
You know, that's what a lot of people think are direct communicators. Like, you're not telling me the truth. You're beating around the bush. You're withholding information from me. And that's not the case at all. They're just communicating in a different way and they're trying to be gentle and polite and kind to you. if you can't identify that, then you're stuck and you're never gonna be able to connect with that person, there's like three steps. It's like, this is what I always say, exploring yourself, being able to identify behaviors in other people, and then you yourself learning how to adapt. And so you always have to start with your own self-reflection.
Christi: Well, devil's advocate here, if I've never been anywhere, how do I know this is just who I am? how do I know what's right and what's wrong?
Renae: How open-minded are you, some people don't have a desire to go out and explore do that sort of self-reflection and you can't force that on anybody. But if [00:26:00] you are a person who is curious and wants to know about the world and wants to experience those different cultures and feels like, oh, maybe, maybe I am ready to learn a little bit about that and, and see what I can figure out, like you can crack that door open a little bit.
That's your opportunity for learning, this is not something that people are born knowing, This is a skill. that's how we talk about cultural intelligence, it's not automatically known to people how to, that the way they act is culturally influenced a lot of times.
Christi: Mm-hmm.
Renae: Because we just believe that it is fact. Right. But it is actually a cultural belief
Christi: like I really am an ugly American.
Renae: If you're gonna go to Paris, yes. You may be like, yes, it's possible that you are going to be an ugly American. I try not to make people feel bad for mistakes that they've made, you know, 'cause I've made mistakes too.
It's not a mission, it's not an issue of like, I guess that's the identity portion. Like, you're not an ugly American. [00:27:00] You are an American. Yes. There's nothing wrong with being American. There's, there's nothing wrong with being a French person. There's nothing wrong with being from any part of the world and like how you treat people is the question, right? And it's a skill. Let's get better at interacting cross-culturally.
Christi: I think most people say to me that they have gotten through with kindness, that kindness is a universal language. Where does that fall into your cultural intelligence matrix?
Renae: You know, we started out this conversation where I gave this example of how kindness is culturally perceived in the United States. So, I think that just saying, I'll be kind and everything will be fine. That doesn't always work all over the world. It works in a lot of places, especially if you're traveling in the West through Europe, In Paris, if you don't greet somebody, they're gonna think you're rude. And it's opposite New York City. If [00:28:00] people greet you, you think they're rude,
Christi: I think they're gonna ask for money begging.
Renae: Something weird is gonna happen. So like. This is the exact same habit greeting people,
and it has completely opposite results different culture and like Paris to New York City. This is just one example, and this is what, like a changed behavior means. So for me, I'm not from either place.
I go to New York City, I'm gonna be much more direct. I go to Paris, I'm gonna be a lot less direct. I'm gonna take my time to do my greeting, my fancy greeting how I am kind and show respect changes, right? A lot of people will say, well, you're just kind, you just use common sense when you travel and, and people will be nice to you. I think maybe they might be nice to you in that, like they know you're an outsider and so they're letting you get away with things, you know? And so maybe they'll take pity on you and help you as an outsider, but that, and that can work, right? If, if you're, if you're troubleshooting a [00:29:00] complicated situation in a country you're not familiar with and they help you, and that's good, but if you really are genuinely trying to connect and build a relationship with people, kindness and like, being nice looks different everywhere. So you think you should be kind is not always gonna translate to every different culture.
Christi: What's one of the trickiest situations you've ever come across in that kind of cross-cultural mishegas?
Renae: Like tricky in what way?
Christi: What you're talking about, like behaviors that maybe you misread or maybe you, you know, Something where you had to weave your way out of it,
Renae: I had to weave my way out of it.
Christi: whatever that means to you.
Renae: so one time I was almost arrested when I lived in South Korea, and this is one of one of my stories that I like to tell from [00:30:00] my travels. But so where I lived in Seoul was a very big, like six lane road. And I had to cross a lot to get to my apartment it was very safe.
You know, I loved living in Seoul because of its safety and a lot of other reasons. But so I was walking home at night by myself one night and at night, that was maybe nine or 10 o'clock. It was very quiet. And so there wasn't a lot of traffic. And so usually, you know, you walk all the way down to the light and you waited for it to turn, and then you crossed. And sometimes at night, if there, it was not a lot of cars on the, no cars on the road, I would just cross. I would jaywalk, And so I did that that night. And a Korean man came up behind me and said, Hey, I called the police because you jaywalked.
And that's illegal. You, you can't do that.
And he just started laying into me. You're a foreigner. You're here just For your own self-interest and you just wanna [00:31:00] make money and you don't care about us or our culture. And just really, really, laying into me. I wanted to prove him wrong. So I stayed there and I tried talking with him and I was like, that's not true.
Like I do, I've been trying really hard to learn the language and I've been trying to meet Korean people and everything. And and then the police showed up and I was like, what is happening? he was talking to 'em in Korean and I could only understand a few words here and there, and I was just apologizing and in Korean.
Yeah. And, you know, saying I was sorry and I, you know, I won't do it and all this other kind of stuff. And. I don't know if quite this is the question you were asking, but for me it was a really tricky situation because like I wanted to show that I was respectful of their culture. I was coming up against someone who was very had some sort of [00:32:00] stereotype and prejudice against people like me. I had never experienced that before. This kind of vehemence right? Like coming at me and, and really being very angry at me. And I don't know why this person acted like that but like it was really a moment of like. I felt very powerless and it was scary. They almost arrested me, but then the guy decided not to ask them to arrest me.
So, you know, I had to be grateful to him for, for that.
Christi: The guy who was laying into you so angry. Mm-hmm.
Renae: yeah. So I went home and I was a wreck. I went to school to work the next day and he had called my school and told the, the staff there, my boss, everything that had happened.
Christi: my gosh. He knew where you worked or he figured where you worked,
Renae: I don't remember if I told him or not. I may have told him. Because I was just like trying to prove [00:33:00] to him like, I'm being open and honest with you. Look at me and, but he also may have been able to figure it out. 'cause you know, I was close to the school. There were a lot of things to navigate in that situation. He had a almost perfect accent. He sounded like an American or a Canadian, you know what I mean? His English was great, this Korean man. this was a, it was a very complex situation and like I never saw him again.
He called my school, they gave him no credit. They asked me about it and they were like, okay, whatever. It's done. They dropped it, which was the appropriate thing to do. And you know, but he really tried to come at me.
Christi: If you had been arrested, it might have been a different story.
Renae: Right. So that was a really tricky, tricky situation. probably one of the times when I was not in my own country that I felt the most vulnerable, powerless, you know, like no matter what I did like no matter what I thought this man was just [00:34:00] gonna target
Christi: Mm-hmm.
Renae: I I spent many months struggling through that experience. And still, think about it from time to time because I'd never been treated like that before. And I know many people experience that kind of stereotyping and negative behavior all the time. It was new for me. When I think about it, it, this, it kind of goes to, you know, these, these negative relationships, this stereotyping. Like this man clearly knew, could speak, speak English very well. He had had a bad experience with somebody like me in the past. In a lot of ways, that's the kind of. Mindset that I want to avoid on this planet, you know what I mean? Like, we can't, we can't allow it to get to that point, Where we are using stereotyping, our cultural assumptions, our ethnocentrism, all that kind of stuff to be harmful to each other.
And it happens all the time, every day. I know it. But [00:35:00] out of that experience and in a lot of other experiences. That's, really what I believe. We've got to be able to interact with each other even though we are very different and be okay with each other and find a way to get along.
Christi: Before we go, is there anything else you want to say? This is a great story, by the way. I really appreciate your vulnerability in telling it. I.
Renae: course. just check out my website. Going beyond tourism. What I really thrive at is I'm really good at going deep, and helping people explore their, cultural like preconceptions and assumptions and sort of opening their eyes, their own cultural behaviors, and really preparing them to connect better across cultures.
That's really what I'm most passionate about. So anyone who's ready to really go deep in that and get better at that, hit me up.
Christi: That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much, Renae.
Renae: Yeah.
Christi: been fun talking with you and boy, I have a few things to think about as I go about my [00:36:00] day and the rest of my life.
Renae: That's exactly what I like to hear, so, yes.
Christi: Thank you.