Santa Fe artist and political activist David Deighton brings a global perspective to seeking out civility and bridging the political divide with public art.
Artist David Deighton was born in Paris and began traveling Europe and the world at age 14. After years of nomadic exploration, he and his wife decided to settle down in Santa Fe in the Southwest United States.
He installs his unconventional “art experiment,” called Triptych Dialogue, in national parks across the United States and beyond. It is part of his mission to rekindle social connections face-to-face, to seek civility and to resist the digital echo chamber.
In fact, he first tried the experiment of bridging the political divide using social media. Not only was it an uncivil arena, he was “shadow banned” and even received death threats from across the boundaries he was trying to cross.
That’s when he knew the only way to find common ground was through words, and in person, by asking three questions and listening. He admits that even starting the conversations is not easy, even with the tool of a microphone in hand.
Each conversation ends with a question about “one word” that represents and encapsulates the participant’s thoughts in the interview. It is these words that form a kind of lyrical underpinning to the videos and to the project itself.
David posts videos on YouTube of his interactions with strangers at the Triptych Dialogue art installations. At the national parks, David asks his three questions of Americans visiting and tourists from around the world, who are drawn to the beauty of the national parks, particularly the Grand Canyon.
Fans of the New Mexico landscape will appreciate David’s ventures to Pecos National Historical Park, White Sands National Park, Carlsbad Caverns and even the Roswell Courthouse.
David also substitute teaches in the Santa Fe public school system and discusses his successful use of the same technique--three questions followed by the "one word" capper--with his students.
When we spoke, David was on his way to Colombia to take the Triptych Dialogue art experiment to another continent and see what civility he could find there.
To see the yearlong social media experiment David ran, check out Triptych Dialogue on Instagram:
instagram.com/triptych_dialogue
To see the ongoing Triptych Dialogue videos, check out YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@triptych-dialogue
More about Servas: https://servas.org/
Contact David Deighton
YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@triptych-dialogue
[00:00:00]
[00:00:34] Christi: Welcome to Moving Along. My guest today is the French artist David Deighton who grew up in Paris and now lives in Santa Fe. You probably know by now that Nan and I lived in Santa Fe for about 15 years before moving back to New York and the Hudson Valley. What drew me to David was his journey to Santa Fe after traveling the world, beginning at age [00:01:00] 14. He's visited, Hmm, I think 80 countries. We'll talk about that. He is also on a mission using his art to get people to talk to one another in real life, to bridge the political divides that he sees, not just in the US but around the world. Welcome, David,
[00:01:23] David: Thank you for having me. It is a pleasure being here.
[00:01:25] Christi: What did travel and moving mean to you as a child?
[00:01:29] David: I grew up in Paris, my father was American. So I would come and spend my summers in the US So I always lived in like this liminal space if you want this uncomfortable space between two countries. So when I was in France, I was thinking of the US or I was very much the American there. And when I was in America as the French person living still, a part of me still left in Paris. So always between the two. [00:02:00] I think that might resonate with some of you out there, that that are, come have a, a duo national background.
[00:02:06] Christi: Yeah. And your father was American and your mom was French, right?
[00:02:11] David: Yes, yes, they barely understood each other. My mother spoke very little English and my father, a word of French
[00:02:17] Christi: Wow. And you're bilingual, I presume.
[00:02:21] David: Yes, yes. And in my house still today, with with my teenage daughter. We only speak French at home, although We live in the United States.
[00:02:29] Christi: What a wonderful gift.
[00:02:30] David: Yeah. So Will that mess her up? I don't know.
[00:02:33] Christi: I was thinking it was a gift.
[00:02:37] David: Yeah. No, it's a gift. I'll, I'll take the gift. We'll take it in that direction.
[00:02:40] Christi: Where was your father from? Where did you spend those summers?
[00:02:43] David: Oh, that, that's interesting. My, my father was he, he moved along. He, was from a small little town, which I brought my daughter to visit not long ago. Ghost Town of Sorts in
the panhandle of Oklahoma. And there literally is tumbleweed going down the main street [00:03:00] down in that, in that small little town. And he left, he hitchhiked, he took off for California because that's where it was all happening, I suppose, in the, in the fifties for him.
And he made it to California And restarted started a new life put on with cowboy boots and a cowboy hat in California. And, worked in promoting, musicians. He was his, his his brother-in-law was Johnny Cash. So he got a lot of of music out there. And he could have, he could promote shows any, anything that fell through the cracks. he would grab that. And he he married an Italian woman, and then later he married a French woman. That, that, that's where I'm from. And later a Greek woman. So he although he had never really traveled much himself except for that trip out west. He, he must've been fascinated with uh, different countries.
[00:03:49] Christi: So, and it was the italian that presumably he met in California that drew him to Europe.
[00:03:55] David: And then it was my mother who was traveling as an airline hostess who would [00:04:00] bring Vietnam vets to Vietnam. And my mother's very well very well traveled,
From a, from a young age throughout Europe. Took a car when she was 18 and drove down into North Africa to Algeria and Morocco and go camping out in the desert.
She had a very wide perspective of things and she met my father in California and, the joke goes is when she understood what he was talking about. She thought it was about time to go and she brought me back to live as a baby, back in France. And I grew up in Paris until I was till I was 18. Although I'd done quite a bit of traveling before that on my own or with my
mother, or with friends. And then moved back to the US and then left and moved to South America, then left, came back to the US went back to France, lived in France, left France,
came back to the US And lived in Australia, went to to different places, then [00:05:00] visit and travel
until I my wife and I, I met along the way.
[00:05:04] David: We decided one day to move to the Southwest the United States. And she was from the UK She wanted some sunshine because it's so gray and miserable in the UK and we went to Texas. And bought ourselves a pickup truck and lived in that while we were visiting all the way we, we had between Austin to San Diego. So we spent several months traveling, looking to where we'd want to live, you know, where, which would be the best, the place, it felt the best for us. this was in, this was in 2000, in the year 2000. there was a group still there today called Servas, which is a travel and peace group where you stay with members and you stay in their house for two nights and you have one meal and you have conversations.
And that way you can You can bridge maybe over, you know, social divides and things like this. It's a group that originated between between communists in [00:06:00] Europe and Western Europe in the fifties. And that way people uh, would travel to Eastern Europe and stay secretly in people's homes, and they'd have conversations and bridge the political divide by having interpersonal contact. And it's still, it is still there today. We traveled with that group, met lots of fabulous people, and met some great ones here in New Mexico. And that really influenced why we chose here. And so anyway, when we made our way several months late, we arrived in San Diego. I, I asked my wife you know, where do you want to live? And, because we, we didn't tell each other where that ultimate place would be. And and she said, oh, Santa Fe. And I said, well, that's fantastic. That's my first choice too. So we just drove back and made it to Santa Fe. and then tried to, to, make a go at it. Very few jobs in Santa Fe, so it wasn't that, it
[00:06:46] Christi: that's true.
[00:06:49] David: great place to live.
[00:06:50] Christi: but you're an artist, but are you also an educator?
[00:06:53] David: Yes. Yes. I teach in the secondary schools since the pandemic because they were lacking, teachers. So I go in as a [00:07:00] substitute teacher. Well, when necessary. That's certainly not for the money because they're very badly paid, but there's a need here. And New Mexico ranks at the very bottom in the US in education. So there's, there's a need to step in. So I do that from time to time. And of course, Santa Fe is, this, is a city full of artists. that's coincidental that I chose Santa Fe possibly. I mean, there are beautiful colors here.
And there is a big artist community, but I never, sold any art or did any artistic practice in
this city, I'd always do it outside, of the state So that I didn't have to work where I lived.
[00:07:34] Christi: Interesting. So it's like you get, you get a lot of the fuel from Santa Fe itself, and then you go elsewhere to create.
[00:07:42] David: Yes. Yeah. I I would create here, but you know, not only does not just producing, there's also selling. So I would sell outside of New Mexico just to create a space where you're not constantly under the pressure of having to move your your work where you live. And also it's a [00:08:00] great opportunity just to get moving and stay on the road.
[00:08:03] Christi: That's true. I mean, it sounds like the wanderlust is in your bones.
[00:08:08] David: Yes, in a sense that unfortunately now your mail follows you through our digital devices,
but there was a time when all the mail would stay at home, and that would be just fine with me. But you know, it's, there's no I, I no longer have this, wander lust. I, I find
that it's just a state of mind, a constant to be in a mode of travel. But it's not really of travel. It's, it's, it's discovering something new in something familiar. And so I also teach that with, with our students, is that you don't have to, to travel to Paris to see something. New and extraordinary for the exotic if you want. It's a, it is a beautiful experience, but we should be able to find also the new and unexpected on our own block in the people that we haven't met yet. People have stories and experience in foods that we haven't had a chance to experience, and they can happen very close to where we live. So we [00:09:00] don't have to travel far in order to have that experience. Although it's a lot easier when you just go somewhere that is totally unexpected and everything smells and tastes different and and, go with that. But the practice of constantly being in that space allows you to, to do it just with the first
stranger you meet. And, that's really refreshing.
[00:09:21] Christi: Is that about, fueling curiosity?
[00:09:24] David: Yes. That would be it. Right? I like that. Yes. Wouldn't
it? Just to be
curious to
to maintain the child within
us. And to, to be curious of what other people have to, to,
say to, but it's also about finding commonality. So it's an inward search to find what you have in common with others and discover maybe new things about yourself through those
exchanges.
[00:09:45] Christi: Tell me about the Triptych Dialogue.
[00:09:48] David: I guess that would, yeah, that would tune straight into that. So my current art project, and this is not the one that, that I make a living off of. There's no money to be made in, in, in, this art [00:10:00] project of mine. I go to meet strangers in public areas. And I engage I engage with strangers asking them about a taboo subject. And I use the taboo subject of politics and not the fact or opinions. I ask non-confrontational political questions to people I meet, and I just listen to them and actively listen with all my senses and. Find one thing I might have in common
with them, and that's usually not a factor opinion. It's gonna be an emotion usually, or they're angry about the state of US politics, for example, maybe for very different reasons than mine.
And I'll tell 'em that. I was like, well, we disagree on about everything you said except you're angry. And I'm angry. And I use that as a, a link a bridge to, and I use it as an example as well, that they could have the same conversation. We just had to have maybe with somebody that they've had a [00:11:00] disagreement with or a family member they no longer speak to, or a coworker they no longer speak to. On certain subjects, I feel there's a need to, for all of us to be able to express ourselves on all subjects with respect. we're losing some of that because we're on our digital devices, very much outraged by the first thing that upsets us, but it's in person. It's a very different interaction. And I feel like we're in a time where those things need to, to be reignited. I use this as an invitation is as an example. I use my artwork as an example. And an invitation for people to do the same in their own lives. cause that's also the point of also of traveling as well, is, is is to find connection with the landscape, with the people, you know, all that. And we can do that in our very own backyard. I think that links back to that. So I do that and you know, usual places I go to national parks. And I go to free speech areas, [00:12:00] and I do that there where it's unexpected. So not the gallery, not the usual space where people would expect to see an art installation or something like that. I'll, bring it into a national park. Outside
windy rain, whatever happens. I've had, I've been snowed on wind and everything, you know, with the elements. And then when there's people that walk by, we have, those that are willing, we have I engage with them and have a conversation which
is used, actually uses my artistic practice if you want. And then them, they, they do the same, which is interesting. They, they, they'll take this as an, the story or the example to engage with somebody else that might be close to them or not. Then it's everything.
[00:12:44] Christi: Where were you? You were at Grand Canyon right? For quite a while.
[00:12:49] David: I've been several times to the Grand Canyon. They have several spaces that I that I like to explore for this project. But in the one you might be referring to, I, I spent. [00:13:00] Two extended weekends, those three days. And I would interact with people for three days. The superintendent was fantastic. They gave me a space, with a 200 space amphitheater, right over the Grand Canyon, right on the rim. So there were thousands of people that got to come by. The distraction, of course, was the Grand Canyon. It's hard to compete with.
That might not have been the best pace, but it was fantastic to, to hear what people had to say and the exchanges. And then I had five days to hike down into the Grand Canyon and go back country camping and explore for five days at the bottom. And think of the conversations I've had. Come back up and then do another three days.
And then, you know, that's an, that's an example. I'll, I'll, I'll throw in some, some hiking and some exploring just to process the exchanges because it, you know, it could be painful. You hear a lot of things in these conversations that are not, you know, there with people that might be your, the opposite of what of they have opposite views that are be like your [00:14:00] political opponent or what some people call their enemy. So you hear things that I'm working on, not having that mindset. So there's a, you know, it's, it's hard to ask questions and only listen without, trying to one up and have a confrontation. It's a, it's a practice. So that's what i'm working on for six years. I'm working for six years. I'm I'm getting, I'm getting somewhere.
[00:14:24] Christi: Well, there you go. I, it struck me the thing about the Grand Canyon as opposed to say Pecos, which I loved, and it was snowing in Pecos. And when when you filmed there, I, uh, this is all on your YouTube channel. I'll say that, Triptych Dialogue and, a lot international tourists, not just people from the US but people from around the world come there. And it struck me that it's like the different voices I could hear, the different accents in what you had recorded,
[00:14:56] David: Oh, you dove deep into that is the, [00:15:00] my YouTube channel is, is like a diary of sorts which I need to put with some more things on. It's certainly not meant to entertain in any way, but it allows me to, to put things together. But yeah, it means, yeah, Grand Canyon, everybody visits the Grand Canyon if they can.
There's people from China, they don't wanna really answer anything that's political, for example, but in India they have a lot of political polarization and they're very eager to answer those, those questions that have a lot to say. And then there's the perceptions of visitors from abroad of how they feel about US politics. So you do hear those things. And then there's religious people as well for people of faith that might not have anything to do with politics. And, they'll, throw in their voices as well through that filter and lens of their, communities, you know, Mennonites And, all this. And which are very different like in the streets of New York, with the Hasidic Jew community. they have their own filters and ways of expressing things. I I don't find those in any way to be [00:16:00] confrontational. But sometimes. for me, I, I'm a Democrat, if you like, and if people from the opposing view might say things that are very much on facts and opinion that I disagree with, and those, those trigger me. But a lot less now after hundreds and hundreds of conversations. I feel less triggered by by words that I used to find hurtful and take personally. And now through these exchanges have come a long way. It's very transformational. So I in a sense travel there in your own backyard. It can be done almost in a long grocery line with somebody that you, that you talk to and encounter if the occasion happens. I, I, I like to tell people that my story is the excuse or the tool that they can use to have a conversation with a stranger.
[00:16:47] David: Three non-confrontational political questions
[00:16:50] Christi: Tell us what they are.
[00:16:51] David: If you were in line with somebody, they're often, they wanna like, what are they non-confrontational political questions. That's impossible. There's no such thing as a [00:17:00] non-confrontational political question. And, they're always same, same three questions. You know, how would you describe the political system of the United States of America? Right. Just listen and you stay present to hear whatever the prison has to say. And the second one is describe your feelings or reactions to the current state of US politics. And you stay present and, and listen to what the person has to say. And the third is kind of a game where you finish the sentence and in politics in the United States, blank person fills it in. And in that, in that process is usually a word or two that are usually like an emotion. That you can, That you also feel as well, that you have in common with the other person. And that's the one I use to tell them, you know, like, you know what those, those words were strong to me. I felt that as well. If there're, if I,
I, feel that we're political opponents, if you like, and quotation marks, you [00:18:00] know I'll tell em that. I'm that dirty liberal that you that you were talking about. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm that person. I'm, yeah, I'm the libtard I'm that person. And but you know, I'm I'm
frustrated too. But interesting enough, I ask them at the end to give me one word. That kind of brings it all together and that's super hard to have one word that that they could give me that summarizes all their answers. And that's the hardest question to answer really. You know, that's kind of a fourth question, really. And often that word is, is the opposite of what they were saying before. So if they had a lot of animosity or anger about politics in general the answer is often hope. That feels so good to know that generally speaking, that's what, they're aspiring to, that they see a positive outcome. And that's across the board, nationalities, whatever left or right, doesn't matter. And that that really,
It's uplifting. And transformational for me, it changed me [00:19:00]tremendously.
[00:19:00] Christi: Was it, a gradual transformation? Was it suddenly you woke up one day and said, wow, I, things have really changed, or what was the experience for you?
[00:19:10] David: it's gradual. I, I'm coming from a long, a long way as as a political activist artivist is in the sense I use my artwork is quite political as well. And yeah, denouncing
polarization and realizing that you're polarized yourself is always an awakening, but it's one step at a time. It's each conversation helps and we're not in a period of time when these conversations come easily. We usually, now we're talking to people. Most We agree with. We converse with them online, the algorithm feeds us things that we agree with and takes us a little notch further in that direction. But when it's to reach out to somebody that we thought we hated in a sense, or we called out and finding the humanity in those people, and that's transformational and it's gradual, [00:20:00] rather than an epiphany of sorts. I mean, there's lots of little epiphanies.
[00:20:05] Christi: So
[00:20:07] Christi: How do you fight the algorithm?
[00:20:11] David: In person. Well, for example, like on my YouTube channel, I don't care. Like, okay, I did fight the algorithm for one year. I did a, before I started this Triptych Dialogue in person art installations and all this, I joined a social media platform and I joined Instagram. And then I thought I would explore political polarization online and I would post an abstract video every day and I would associate it with Plato's all story of the Cave because we're quite complicated. And I'd do this every day. I would try something. and through that
process, I found first of all, I got banned. I got banned from the, yeah, I got banned a half a dozen times. Something called shadow Banning where they, they don't tell you that, that you're banned, which you, you have no longer access to [00:21:00] your account. You know, the beginning is just a couple of days and you can't have any answers. And then it's a week and then it's a month.
[00:21:08] Christi: Did you have any idea why
[00:21:10] David: I had to look online, go on Reddit and see if it happened to anyone else. It was very odd. I can't access my account anymore, what's going on? And then through process of elimination, I found like I was using, I what I, what I think was happening because I never had a definite answer, certainly not from the platform, is that I was reaching out to people outside of my echo chamber if you want off of my account. I was trying to, one day I'd go contact nurses the nursing health practitioners, and the next day it'd be, I don't know, a firemen or whatever. Every day. Every now and then I'd try a different group and apparently
that's what bots do or something like this. so the algorithm I guess found that like, don't do that. And after one year I was so happy when it's finished, when I could finally do the last post that says people can go, they can go see the whole [00:22:00] thing. It's called, it's also Triptych Dialogue. That name, I changed it so I could fit with that. Views from the cave. And the last one says the end. I was so happy as I was finished. The end was my last post. But that was an exploration into political polarization, how the algorithm works. I, I tried to find ways to get around it to connect with others. It seemed impossible. And and also I
explored being a Democrat. I, I explored alt-right groups and far right groups, and looked at the messaging and linguistics and engaged on the platforms and, tried to find ways to converse. With like, if you want my political opponent online and all the vitriol possible was coming out and, death threats and all this stuff, it was crazy. I thought this is never going to go anywhere.
[00:22:43] Christi: You got death threats.
[00:22:45] David: they just say things, you know, people write things, they write things. And and then okay, so. I thought, well, this is not gonna work. Well, why isn't it working? It's like, well, I'm online. I'm on a outrage, on an outrage [00:23:00] device.
Promoting more outrage probably. So I thought, I gotta go in person, I gotta go face to face. And that's when I went face to face and started experimenting in person with people. And that is amazing. because there's still so much civility in our personal face-to-face contacts with people that cannot be found online. And it is so much stronger.
So I found you definitely need a tool in order to have that conversation with just a stranger. So hence it's the excuse. So, you know, I used a microphone. It didn't have to be on or off. I'm like, can I interview you?
[00:23:39] David: The point is listening and just finding one thing you have in common that's my personal experience. That's what's worked for me.
[00:23:44] Christi: How long did it take you to get those questions? I mean, they're very, they're very elegant.
[00:23:51] David: oh, That's very kind of you. They, they're not from me.
[00:23:53] Christi: From you. Oh.
[00:23:56] David: They're, no, because my, My first questions [00:24:00] yeah. Right. My first questions were polarizing, believe it or not. I was using questions that would just actually make, people angry because there's words that we use that could, especially in the political field, that, that trigger other people especially if they're on the opposite of, of you politically. And so this isn't working. I, I, I I wasn't going where I wanted to go or I thought I wanted to go. So I had some friends that were linguists at the university and I said, oh, just help me. I said, your questions are all wrong, David. You gotta do 'em this way and like, okay I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna try it out. and I, so those questions are not even mine. And they've actually worked marvels. One's kind of a game. One asks about how somebody feels, and the other one about structure. So yeah you don't have to use all three. Just use one. You know they, yeah, they, they worked, they worked marvels, the, the point is that if not to be triggered on your side is to, to, listen, [00:25:00] to actively listen with all your senses.
[00:25:03] David: So not just auditory and, and visual, but to imagine, for example, if if you really get triggered by a word, is to think, what does that word afterwards, you know how does that word taste like? Or what does that word smell like? and that helps to process it. And that makes for an interesting art installation as well. When, when I, when I've asked people what democracy tastes like or what does fascism tastes like,
[00:25:30] Christi: And some of the answers, what have you heard?
[00:25:33] David: The thing is, is, that it, that immediately brings you to another place. First of all, the question's so offbeat, you know, well, how do you make sense of that? But then you start thinking of it and it, and it ends up like you know, democracy's apple pie or it's, it's a sour lemon. All these things start coming out. they, us, they involve usually some type of food or compost, something that you find in your compost or something like this[00:26:00]
[00:26:00] Christi: Worm castings
[00:26:00] David: But it, whatever that tastes like. And but then on the other hand, that's a story and somebody can use that also to initiate conversations of the oddest kind that might, you know, maybe not some strange on the street. They might think you're crazy. You always need, there's always the time and a
[00:26:22] Christi: So you encourage, you talk to people and you encourage them then to take the same, to to go tell somebody else about this encounter here, With you.
[00:26:33] David: Yeah. Yes. It's a pyramid scheme.
[00:26:36] Christi: Yeah, I was wondering about the language thing. If you, I mean, obviously you're bilingual, you're more than bilingual if you can do this in Spanish as well. If that makes a difference in the way that people answer or the way that they perceive the questions.
[00:26:53] David: Oh, it's gotta be right. I mean, this is not, not, what I'm doing is certainly not scientific or empirical research. [00:27:00] And I don't try to so it's, it certainly must be influenced by my accent, my demeanor the all, all the things where I've chosen to do this. It, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Too much, too much for me. I mean, we're only talking samples if you want of, of hundreds, not thousands of people, you know?
[00:27:18] Christi: Well, a anecdotal, evidence is still, you know, valid and it's art, right? Art, artevision, you call it. Right? Art Art of vision, political activist, artist,
[00:27:31] David: an artivist. Yeah.
[00:27:33] Christi: something like that.
[00:27:35] David: To me. You're an artist. We're all doing political stuff. It is all, that's the way I see things. That's my, that's my echo chamber, Christi, as I, that's, if anybody wants a view of my, of my plexiglass box, that's how I see things. All of our actions with intention are political and artwork, I have a just world hypothesis, I believe there's such a thing as a just world, and I can't, I can't get out of that. [00:28:00] That we can live in a place where there's social justice and that we can aim to that. Apparently that's the cognitive bias. So I, that's my, that's one of my biases
[00:28:09] Christi: Well, you wear it. Well, thank you David.